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Unread 04-21-2016, 10:28 PM   #1
aaron benjamin
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optimism

Would it be correct to say that based on Torah that when the geulah comes, all will turn out for the best personally and collectively? Will all problems be solved or resolved?
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Unread 04-22-2016, 02:27 AM   #2
shpitzchabad
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Overall, I think so.

But if you want to knit-pick you can say that the statement is true even today (it's only that we don't always SEE the good), and the second half is bit vague - it depends what you mean by "problems".

Would you call guilt a problem?
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Unread 04-22-2016, 09:53 AM   #3
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Define "problems," and define "solved."

In general, yes, all problems will be solved. However, since we really don't know the master plan, we won't necessarily recognize this - at least not at first. Also, your problems are not necessarily problems from G-d's perspective. Unless your problem is some kind of punishment for a sin (and even then), it's not really a problem in G-d's eyes - it's just what's meant to be. You're simply too "blind" to understand *why* it's meant to be.

Collectively, obviously the problems will be solved. I.e., Bibi will no longer cave to Obama, since he won't be in charge. Muslim terrorists will no longer murder Jewish civilians, because there will be no more terrorists.

Hope that makes some sense...
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Unread 04-22-2016, 11:22 AM   #4
aaron benjamin
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Originally Posted by shpitzchabad View Post
Overall, I think so.

But if you want to knit-pick you can say that the statement is true even today (it's only that we don't always SEE the good), and the second half is bit vague - it depends what you mean by "problems".

Would you call guilt a problem?
It does not seem to me that everything is already perfect today. When I say problems I mean anything that could interfere with a person's simcha as being a problem. I would call guilt a problem as well.
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Unread 04-22-2016, 11:28 AM   #5
aaron benjamin
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Define "problems," and define "solved."

In general, yes, all problems will be solved. However, since we really don't know the master plan, we won't necessarily recognize this - at least not at first. Also, your problems are not necessarily problems from G-d's perspective. Unless your problem is some kind of punishment for a sin (and even then), it's not really a problem in G-d's eyes - it's just what's meant to be. You're simply too "blind" to understand *why* it's meant to be.

Collectively, obviously the problems will be solved. I.e., Bibi will no longer cave to Obama, since he won't be in charge. Muslim terrorists will no longer murder Jewish civilians, because there will be no more terrorists.

Hope that makes some sense...
As I mentioned in my previous response, I would say problems are anything that interfere with one's happiness or ability to be happy.

Some of the Torah sources that got me thinking along these lines were from the Lubavitcher Rebbe as I heard that he said that when the redemption comes the verse from Isaiah (I think it was) will be fulfilled "I will thank You Hashem because You have reprimanded me"

Another one was from a teaching of Rebbe Nachman where he quoted the Talmud that said at this time we bless the true Judge Dayan emet, however in the future for everything we will say hatov vehametiv, if I am not mistaken.

Another one from Rebbe Nachman he said when a person knows that everything that happens to him is for his benefit, this aspect is a foretaste of the World to Come.

Last edited by aaron benjamin; 04-22-2016 at 12:53 PM.
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Unread 04-24-2016, 04:34 AM   #6
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Aaron Benjamin, what you're not understanding is that each *person* is in charge of his or her own happiness.

There are people who have everything - family, good health, lots of money, friends, whatever - and they are not happy. They feel guilty, they feel sad, whatever.

And there are people who have significant problems - they need to do IVF, they have zero savings and are making minus 300 every month, their kids have learning issues, their marriage is falling apart (or fell apart), or their loved ones were killed in terror attacks (and they themselves were hurt in those same attacks - but they are happy and optimistic.

Part of it is personality, yes.
But a bigger part of it is how you see the world, and *what* you choose to see.

I can be bummed and seriously depressed because I have *no idea* (honest and truly) how we are going to pay our bills next month.

Or I can say, "Well, G-d took care of us till now, so I guess He'll take care of it now, too," and just do my part and enjoy the chag like I'm supposed to.

And hey, what's more important than how much money you have, is what it's spent on. Better to barely finish the month, but to have your money go only to good things, than ch'v the opposite . . . (Granted, when the health care fund (or, NII) covers most things, it's not such a "wow" when even for health issues, you spend money only on small co-pays and travel. But still. There are people whose issues are not covered, and they've got big issues.)

When Maoshiach comes, will I have parnasa problems? Probably not.
Will I automatically be happy when Moshiach comes? Absolutely not, unless I work on being happy.

Based on your quotes, I see that you've been reading along these same lines. Reread those quotes and try to understand how they answer your question.

Again, happiness isn't what life dishes you out. It's about how you see, and deal with, what you've been "dished out".

A gutten moed.
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Unread 04-24-2016, 04:57 AM   #7
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There's a saying from the Frierdiker Rebbe, often quoted by the Rebbe:

Quote:
כאשר יקוים היעוד דביאת משיח צדקנו, וועט מען זיך כאפען פארן קאפ (ישים ידיו על ראשו ברגש צער גדול וחרטה) על הימים והתקופה הכי טובה שבסוף זמן הגלות, שהיו יכולים לפעול בתורה ומצות בהתגברות על כל ההעלמות וההסתרים דאז, שאז העבודה נעימה יותר וחביבה יותר, הן לעובד והן לזה שציוה על העבודה, בורא עולם ומנהיגו, משא"כ כשרוח הטומאה יעבור מן הארץ ואין מנגדים וכו'
In other words when Moshiach will come, we'll feel guilty that we haven't treasured the opportunities we had before, during galut.

So I'd revise your statement a bit to say:

Quote:
When Moshiach comes, all unpreventable problems will be solved or resolved.
This includes, mental and physical health, longevity, financial and housing issues, all political and religion related problems (including terrorism in all it's forms), but not guilt about what we hadn't done before Moshiach.

To quality that I'd say that when Moshiach comes will be much less focused on ourselves, and more oriented towards Hashem. Thinking little about ourselves (including our guilt), will pretty much guarantee our happiness. It's like - lehavdil - the joy you feel with extreme sports, you're busy with something other than yourself, so time flies, and you enjoy it immensely.
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Unread 04-25-2016, 12:31 AM   #8
aaron benjamin
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Originally Posted by Majorthinker View Post
Again, happiness isn't what life dishes you out. It's about how you see, and deal with, what you've been "dished out".

A gutten moed.
I agree that one's attitude can make a big difference but isn't what one lacks also a factor? If there are things you wish you had or that you wish would be different, then wouldn't it be easier to be happy with shleimut hasimcha when the redemption comes G*d willing and one will hopefully no longer have any deficiencies or things that they wish will be different etc.? In the meanwhile it seems to me that we just need to try to do the best we can, but without neccesarily achieving a shleimut of simcha.
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Unread 04-25-2016, 12:38 AM   #9
aaron benjamin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzemach View Post
There's a saying from the Frierdiker Rebbe, often quoted by the Rebbe:



In other words when Moshiach will come, we'll feel guilty that we haven't treasured the opportunities we had before, during galut.

So I'd revise your statement a bit to say:



This includes, mental and physical health, longevity, financial and housing issues, all political and religion related problems (including terrorism in all it's forms), but not guilt about what we hadn't done before Moshiach.

To quality that I'd say that when Moshiach comes will be much less focused on ourselves, and more oriented towards Hashem. Thinking little about ourselves (including our guilt), will pretty much guarantee our happiness. It's like - lehavdil - the joy you feel with extreme sports, you're busy with something other than yourself, so time flies, and you enjoy it immensely.
Is it guilt or is it regret due to losing out on the reward for the mitzvot? I can imagine having regret for losing out on reward for the mitzvot. I certainly have much room for improvement, but I feel that in my circumstances, it is difficult for me to do much better than I am doing right now. I am hoping that Hashem will agree with me and will judge me favorably.
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Unread 04-25-2016, 02:33 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaron benjamin View Post
I agree that one's attitude can make a big difference but isn't what one lacks also a factor? If there are things you wish you had or that you wish would be different, then wouldn't it be easier to be happy with shleimut hasimcha when the redemption comes G*d willing and one will hopefully no longer have any deficiencies or things that they wish will be different etc.? In the meanwhile it seems to me that we just need to try to do the best we can, but without neccesarily achieving a shleimut of simcha.
No. It is entirely up to the person. I agree, it is much easier (and in my opinion - better) to have the gashmiyus taken care of nicely, easily, and in an openly good way.

But, what one lacks is not necessarily a factor in happiness. It really depends on the person - whether the person chooses to see the lack, or chooses to see what he has.

Also it depends a lot on the parents. A person whose parents were negative and always complaining (even about stupid things, even when all the big things were good) will have to work harder to be happy.

It's not about the gashmiyus you lack. It's about the ruchniyus work that you haven't done.

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Originally Posted by aaron benjamin View Post
Is it guilt or is it regret due to losing out on the reward for the mitzvot? I can imagine having regret for losing out on reward for the mitzvot. I certainly have much room for improvement, but I feel that in my circumstances, it is difficult for me to do much better than I am doing right now. I am hoping that Hashem will agree with me and will judge me favorably.
Sorry, but your guilt is not because you lost out on the reward for mitzvot. It's just atzat yetzer hara.

Listen, if you feel that you can't do better - so fine. Don't bother. After all, you can't do better.

If doing better is important to you, then work on it.

Hashem knows what your limit is and if you are making excuses or doing the best you can.
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Unread 04-25-2016, 11:21 AM   #11
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No. It is entirely up to the person. I agree, it is much easier (and in my opinion - better) to have the gashmiyus taken care of nicely, easily, and in an openly good way.

But, what one lacks is not necessarily a factor in happiness. It really depends on the person - whether the person chooses to see the lack, or chooses to see what he has.
It still seems to me that one's circumstances are also an important factor. Do you have a source in Torah to support your view that attitude is everything, or is this just your personal opinion?

Quote:
Sorry, but your guilt is not because you lost out on the reward for mitzvot. It's just atzat yetzer hara.

Listen, if you feel that you can't do better - so fine. Don't bother. After all, you can't do better.

If doing better is important to you, then work on it.

Hashem knows what your limit is and if you are making excuses or doing the best you can.
I wasn't talking about me feeling guilty. Tzemach had made a post about the guilt people will feel when the redemption comes according to his reading. I was just questioning if the quote from the Previous Rebbe was talking about guilt or regret.
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Unread 04-25-2016, 12:10 PM   #12
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It still seems to me that one's circumstances are also an important factor. Do you have a source in Torah to support your view that attitude is everything, or is this just your personal opinion?
Your own sources support what I said. You just didn't understand them.

At any rate, I don't have time to look it up at the moment, but if it is important to you, I can try to do so later.


Quote:
I wasn't talking about me feeling guilty. Tzemach had made a post about the guilt people will feel when the redemption comes according to his reading. I was just questioning if the quote from the Previous Rebbe was talking about guilt or regret.
It cannot be that the F"R is speaking about guilt. Therefore, he must be speaking about regret.
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Unread 04-25-2016, 03:58 PM   #13
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Is it guilt or is it regret due to losing out on the reward for the mitzvot?
As I understand it'a a mix of both. The levels a soul can reach during the times of Moshiach correspond to the live it lives before. So we might feel bad that we didn't maximize our potential. In another sicha the Rebbe speaks about the proud feeling of those who contributed to bring moshiach, and the embarrassment of those who did nothing and Moshiach has come despite their actions.

But I think the purpose of those statements is not to belittle the positive feelings we'll have at Moshiach, but to encourage us to do more today. The Rambam does say that when Moshiach comes there will be no jealousy or competition, and it seems to include spiritual jealousy as well. So apparently these negative feelings will be marginal compared to the positive feelings of experiencing utopia.
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Unread 04-25-2016, 09:43 PM   #14
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Your own sources support what I said. You just didn't understand them.

At any rate, I don't have time to look it up at the moment, but if it is important to you, I can try to do so later.
I would be interested to see your sources that support what you suggest that attitude is everything if I understood you correctly. I am still of the opinion and hope that when we are told that everything will turn out for the best when the redemption comes that this will mean that circumstances will also turn out for the best and not only the way we interpret them.
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Unread 04-25-2016, 09:46 PM   #15
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As I understand it'a a mix of both. The levels a soul can reach during the times of Moshiach correspond to the live it lives before. So we might feel bad that we didn't maximize our potential. In another sicha the Rebbe speaks about the proud feeling of those who contributed to bring moshiach, and the embarrassment of those who did nothing and Moshiach has come despite their actions.

But I think the purpose of those statements is not to belittle the positive feelings we'll have at Moshiach, but to encourage us to do more today. The Rambam does say that when Moshiach comes there will be no jealousy or competition, and it seems to include spiritual jealousy as well. So apparently these negative feelings will be marginal compared to the positive feelings of experiencing utopia.
Thank you for clarifying. I appreciate the scenario that you describe.
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Unread 04-27-2016, 03:03 PM   #16
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I would be interested to see your sources that support what you suggest that attitude is everything if I understood you correctly.
Will try to look it up.

Quote:
I am still of the opinion and hope that when we are told that everything will turn out for the best when the redemption comes that this will mean that circumstances will also turn out for the best and not only the way we interpret them.
Define "for the best."

Is your definition, "What makes me happy and doesn't interfere with my simcha and optimism?"
Or is it, "What completes G-d's master plan?"
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Unread 04-27-2016, 05:21 PM   #17
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Define "for the best."

Is your definition, "What makes me happy and doesn't interfere with my simcha and optimism?"
Or is it, "What completes G-d's master plan?"
I would say it is a combination of both.
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Unread 04-27-2016, 05:22 PM   #18
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Will try to look it up.
I will look forward to seeing what you can find.
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