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Unread 06-02-2010, 11:38 AM   #1
noahidelaws
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Wanting Moshiach for gashmiyus

It says that when Moshiach comes "kol hamaadanim metzuyim k'ofor." It also says "mitoch she'lo lishmo, boh lishmo". So practically speaking, should we encourage people to want Moshiach to come so that they won't be poor, or because then they will be rich? In other words, should we actively encourage people to want the Geula because of the gashmiyus we will have then? And even if you say that's not appropriate for adults, what about children, may/should one encourage them to want the Geula because then they will be able to eat all the sweets one wants?
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Unread 06-02-2010, 12:27 PM   #2
Yankel Nosson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
It says that when Moshiach comes "kol hamaadanim metzuyim k'ofor." It also says "mitoch she'lo lishmo, boh lishmo". So practically speaking, should we encourage people to want Moshiach to come so that they won't be poor, or because then they will be rich? In other words, should we actively encourage people to want the Geula because of the gashmiyus we will have then? And even if you say that's not appropriate for adults, what about children, may/should one encourage them to want the Geula because then they will be able to eat all the sweets one wants?
Gashmiyus? What gashmiyus? "kol hamaadanim metzuyim k'ofor" means that as much as you value and delight in ofor in olam hazeh, that's how much you will delight in kol hamaadanim l'asid lavo.

Children is another story.
Adults who have a child's conception may also be another story.
Tachlis, we need to expand the keilim.

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The words "as dust" signify that material delicacies will not only be available in abundance, but that they will be valued as mere dust of the earth, which is inedible. In other words: People will feel the need for delicacies only because without them the body will be lacking in health and fitness (for the service of G-d); in their own right, delicacies will be reckoned as dust of the earth.

http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books...ption-2/14.htm
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Unread 06-02-2010, 01:01 PM   #3
chossidnistar
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we are not going to have shibud malchius ,not more taxes, not jury duty,not more Obama,not more Netaniahu, not more candidates for VAAD In CH.not more politics

I do not know where we are going to get the money from,problably we are going to be collecting global taxes
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Unread 06-02-2010, 01:11 PM   #4
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not more taxes,
Is there a source for this?
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Unread 06-02-2010, 01:19 PM   #5
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Is there a source for this?
not more shibud malchius. if there are taxes ,they should be for Jewish Nation
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Unread 06-02-2010, 01:35 PM   #6
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YN, I know about the Rebbe's pirush about k'ofor. My question was whether we should actively excite ourselves with a desire for Moshiach by thinking about this. And here we're talking about evoking emotions, so regardless of one's adult conceptions, unless you've reached the level of Tzaddik gomur al pi Tanya, if the nefesh habehamis enjoys steak and wants to avoid having to pay taxes, then is it proper to excite oneself about the coming of Moshiach for this reason?

Of course, the same question could be asked about Torah and Mitzvos in general, and chinuch of children in general.
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Unread 06-02-2010, 01:38 PM   #7
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not more shibud malchius. if there are taxes ,they should be for Jewish Nation
That's all well and good. But there will still (likely) be taxes.
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Unread 06-02-2010, 01:42 PM   #8
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If maadanim metzuyim k'ofor, why would there be taxes?
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Unread 06-02-2010, 01:46 PM   #9
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That's a nice svoro. But there always were taxes (not to mention, maaser, shekalim, etc. etc.). Is there a source that suggests otherwise?
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Unread 06-02-2010, 02:19 PM   #10
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Let's stick to the thread topic.
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Unread 06-02-2010, 02:54 PM   #11
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, if the nefesh habehamis enjoys steak and wants to avoid having to pay taxes, then is it proper to excite oneself about the coming of Moshiach for this reason?

.
would you say to someone about a possible chiuv skilah
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Unread 06-02-2010, 04:16 PM   #12
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Bias Moshiach is gilui Elokus!

Golus is caring about a steak and fries.
Geulah is seeing the Elokus in everything.
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Unread 06-02-2010, 04:23 PM   #13
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Bias Moshiach is gilui Elokus!

Golus is caring about a steak and fries.
Geulah is seeing the Elokus in everything.
in Yemos Hamoshiach?
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Unread 06-02-2010, 04:45 PM   #14
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in Yemos Hamoshiach?
Yoh!

"There is no difference...except shibud malchiyos". The inyan of shibud malchiyos is the yetzer hara (Eitz Chayim and other places). "I will remove the spirit of impurity (yetzer hara) from the land". This is why davka in Yemos Hamoshiach we can perform "k'mitzvos ratzonecha", because there won't be a yetzer hara (Hemshech V'Kacha 5637).

This is why Matan Torah was "m'eyn" yemos hamoshiach, because we didn't have a yetzer hara anymore ("paska zuhamason"--see Tanya Perek 36).
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Unread 06-02-2010, 04:50 PM   #15
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Yoh!

"There is no difference...except shibud malchiyos". The inyan of shibud malchiyos is the yetzer hara (Eitz Chayim and other places). "I will remove the spirit of impurity (yetzer hara) from the land". This is why davka in Yemos Hamoshiach we can perform "k'mitzvos ratzonecha", because there won't be a yetzer hara (Hemshech V'Kacha 5637).

This is why Matan Torah was "m'eyn" yemos hamoshiach, because we didn't have a yetzer hara anymore ("paska zuhamason"--see Tanya Perek 36).
this does not explain that we are going to see elokus in everything
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Unread 06-02-2010, 05:02 PM   #16
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this does not explain that we are going to see elokus in everything
The only reason we don't see Elokus is because of the ruach shtuss which is the yetzer hara.

After Moshiach comes, all Yidden will be prophets (as mentioned in NH's other thread). Prophecy is seeing Elokus: "When [a person's] knowledge of G-dliness comes through sight - even the sight of [the eyes of] wisdom - and surely the sight of prophecy which is like actual sight,[58] his knowledge is bip'sheetus, [an integral and indigenous element of his being]." (http://www.sichosinenglish.com/books...ption-2/04.htm)

And to note: In the times of the 1st BHM, during aliyah l'regel, the Yidden came "to see and to be seen", meaning seeing Elokus. L'asid Lavo this is all the time everywhere.

A lot better than steak and chips, eh wot?
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Unread 06-02-2010, 05:09 PM   #17
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steak an chips are going to have a holy taste
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Unread 06-02-2010, 05:14 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by chossidnistar View Post
steak an chips are going to have a holy taste
Leviyoson and Shor HaBor.
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Unread 06-02-2010, 05:28 PM   #19
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Leviyoson and Shor HaBor.
yes, but steak and chips are going to be very important
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Unread 06-02-2010, 07:52 PM   #20
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Why this mishmash of pshat, remez and drush (- a common problem in some circles)?
Pshat in the Rambam is that מעדנים will be plentiful like dust; then there is the remez that they will be valued as dust.
There is nothing wrong with teaching someone according to the simple (halachik) pshat of the Rambam.
If one holds by a higher madreigo - gezunterheit.
The same is concerning the issue of shibud malchios that was referenced above.
I do not begin to understand the original question.
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Unread 06-02-2010, 08:36 PM   #21
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YN, I must be slow, but I see no connection between what you wrote and what I wrote. The issue is not the way it will be when Moshiach comes, but whether those who are not yet baalei madreigoh should "talk the language of the nefesh habehamis" in describing this age to themselves.

Torah613, are you suggesting that we not teach children that when Moshiach comes they will not want sweets, because that's an inyan that's only relevant for baalei madreigoh?

Regarding the original question--it is a question in avodah. What is there not to understand?
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Unread 06-02-2010, 11:33 PM   #22
Torah613
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Does one teach children to learn Torah lishmoh?
How about concerning doing Mitzvos - do we not teach them the pshuto shel mikro אם בחוקתי תלכו גו' ונתתי גשמיכם בעתם?
Etc.
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Unread 06-03-2010, 01:59 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
YN, I must be slow, but I see no connection between what you wrote and what I wrote. The issue is not the way it will be when Moshiach comes, but whether those who are not yet baalei madreigoh should "talk the language of the nefesh habehamis" in describing this age to themselves.
Your original loshon wasn't clear. Now I will respond differently to what you are writing here.

Consider: It's not that the words of Chazal are chas v'sholom wrong or misleading, but with the coming of Moshiach the pshat of reality will change. Every Jew will be rich, but the definition of rich will be -- poshut pshat -- daas Elokus.

But since right now da'as Elokus is an abstract concept and cash is cash, many people are perhaps unable--until someone will begin to explain it to them--to get really excited about being rich in da'as Elokus. So, then, in order to convey the excitement of Yemos Hamoshiach, we can say "everyone will be rich". But in order to convey the pnimiyus hainyonim (and this is the inyan of Chaba"d, kemuvan) one needs the biur that the delight he feels now over the idea of being rich in cash is a fraction of the delight he will feel over being rich in Da'as Elokus le'asid.

In my experience, this is something even children can grasp--that when Moshiach comes they will get more pleasure from saying Tehillim than they get from eating candy now (even if right now they much prefer eating candy).

B'kitzur--tell them the pshat, and add the explanation. Adults and children. Nothing is lost in the process, imho.
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Unread 06-03-2010, 09:36 PM   #24
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Listen, keeping Shabbos is a mitzvah d'oreisa, and one of the ten commandments. But what do we do in our Chabad houses?

We invite people because the food is delicious - come and enjoy a nice meal with your family (zochor). We tell people its good for their mental health - one day without going to work and without a cell phone (shomor).

When the topic comes up, we mention that this is what Hashem wants Jews to do and we have to fulfill his will, but you don't have to push that so much in the beginning. Some shluchim davka avoid mentioning the idea of a chiyuv - just come because your life will be better. With time, we teach people about responsibility, but only with time.

I don't see why we should approach Moshiach any differently.
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Unread 06-04-2010, 10:25 AM   #25
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We should begin with Hillel and after that procede with Shammai
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