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Unread 08-10-2008, 04:17 PM   #26
shlucha14
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i thought lion's q was a really good one, so i went on askmoses.com, this is what i got.

"
the yerushalmi in berachos says that moshiach is born on Tisha b'av, the Rebbe explains that it doesn't mean actual birth b/c moshiach is ready to redeem the jewish ppl at any moment, & if they do teshuva they can't wait till he grows up in 20 yrs. so the Rebbe says that "born" means REVEALED just as a baby is revealed into the world at birth"

i dont know if this answers it, but its the best askmoses could do.

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Unread 08-10-2008, 04:20 PM   #27
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just a sidenote- askmoses also said that "its ridiculous to speculate about such things, rather we should concentrate on things that bring the geulah".
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Unread 08-10-2008, 04:47 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shlucha14 View Post
i thought lion's q was a really good one, so i went on askmoses.com, this is what i got.

"
the yerushalmi in berachos says that moshiach is born on Tisha b'av, the Rebbe explains that it doesn't mean actual birth b/c moshiach is ready to redeem the jewish ppl at any moment, & if they do teshuva they can't wait till he grows up in 20 yrs. so the Rebbe says that "born" means REVEALED just as a baby is revealed into the world at birth"

i dont know if this answers it, but its the best askmoses could do.


I was not asking a question.
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Unread 08-10-2008, 05:30 PM   #29
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BS"D

Sadly, some people, well meaning though they may be, seem to be asking for a Moshiach that was born on Purim or lehavdil April 1 judging by their antics!
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Unread 08-10-2008, 05:35 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by shlucha14 View Post
just a sidenote- askmoses also said that "its ridiculous to speculate about such things, rather we should concentrate on things that bring the geulah".
Why is it ridiculous to speculate on the meanings of maamarei Chazal?
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Unread 08-10-2008, 05:42 PM   #31
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Perhaps because many/most/ a large percentage are not meant to be taken כפשוטו? In addition to the words of the Rambam in the end of Hil. Mlochim.
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Unread 08-10-2008, 05:49 PM   #32
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It is ridiculous to develop silly ideas about maamarei chazel (like the aforementioned idea regarding how the Rebbe was "born" on Tisha B'Av). But to make an earnest and informed attempt to decipher the meaning of certain maamarei chazal? What could be wrong with that?
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Unread 08-10-2008, 06:06 PM   #33
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To paraphrase the Rambam: It is a waste of time (for most of us).
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Unread 08-10-2008, 06:16 PM   #34
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That isn't what the Rambam says. It isn't a good paraphrase. It isn't close.
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Unread 08-10-2008, 06:22 PM   #35
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He wasn't was he?
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Unread 08-10-2008, 06:26 PM   #36
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No. He was born on 11 Nissan.
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Unread 08-10-2008, 06:44 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Meshulam View Post
That isn't what the Rambam says. It isn't a good paraphrase. It isn't close.
ולעולם לא יתעסק אדם בדברי ההגדות ולא יאריך בדברי מדרשות האמורים בענינים אלו וכיוצא בהן ולא ישימם עיקר, שאינן מביאין לא לידי אהבה ולא לידי יראה
Close enough for me.
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Unread 08-10-2008, 10:02 PM   #38
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Perhaps because many/most/ a large percentage are not meant to be taken כפשוטו? In addition to the words of the Rambam in the end of Hil. Mlochim.
There happens to be those that do learn that this Midrash can be taken Kepshuto (and this is also the reason why I wanted to point out that this Midrash Happens to be different than most other midrashim since this one has Halachik ramifications).

But regardless of what the meaning of the midrash is (i.e. even if it is kepshuto) it has nothing to do with the issue at hand, for even those who learn it kepshuto, they mean right after the churban, not that Moshiach in later generations has to have been born on the 9th of Av.
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Unread 08-10-2008, 10:15 PM   #39
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Lion, I am aware of that, and the halachik implications etc. However, since the original question implied applying that Chazal to todays day and age, IOW that it applies not only to the original TB and the Moshiach born then, but for all time, therefore I wrote what I wrote.
ותו לא מידי.
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Unread 08-10-2008, 11:00 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by LION View Post
I was not asking a question.
sorry, yours and noahidelaws' neshamos must be so intrinsically connected that i mixed you up. ;-)
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Unread 08-10-2008, 11:01 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Meshulam View Post
Why is it ridiculous to speculate on the meanings of maamarei Chazal?
maybe you should ask rabbi jacobson- he answered my question. personally i agree with you, but who am i.
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Unread 08-10-2008, 11:58 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613 View Post
ולעולם לא יתעסק אדם בדברי ההגדות ולא יאריך בדברי מדרשות האמורים בענינים אלו וכיוצא בהן ולא ישימם עיקר, שאינן מביאין לא לידי אהבה ולא לידי יראה
Close enough for me.
The way you learn this Rambam doesn't make sense. The Rebbe is Osek in these matters in the sichos. The Chazal obviously thought we should be osek in these matters, because they discuss them in the Gemarra. Rambam makes it clear that these things should not be made the ikkar (his words, not a paraphrase). But for someone to learn these maamarei chazal, and trying to understand them, is praiseworthy.
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Unread 08-11-2008, 07:50 AM   #43
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The way "I" learn the Rambam? Sounds as if I said a pshat in Rambam - all I did was quote it word for word.
He writes 2 other expressions besides not being an ikur (לא יאריך, לא יעסוק, and concludes (again - my paraphrase) "because it doesn't help your avodah".
Correct me if I am wrong - but the Rebbe's main hisaskus was in the "halocho" of Moshiach. Also, the Rebbe's sichos were to bring to אהבה ויראה, which is why he always has a הוראה etc., not fanciful speculation.
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The Chazal obviously thought we should be osek in these matters, because they discuss them in the Gemarra.
Of course they do. The point is that we have no reason to delve into those Chazal, and come up with silly fanciful theories, as it is pointless, like the Rambam writes.
But aderabo, if you enjoy such discussions, go right ahead!
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Unread 08-11-2008, 09:33 AM   #44
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The way "I" learn the Rambam? Sounds as if I said a pshat in Rambam - all I did was quote it word for word.
He writes 2 other expressions besides not being an ikur (לא יאריך, לא יעסוק, and concludes (again - my paraphrase) "because it doesn't help your avodah".
The paraphrase was wrong. The quote was word for word. The statement that it should not be ikkar explains the previous two statements. In other words, "Lo yarich" (I can't type in Hebrew letters... its miracle enough that I can type in English letters :-D, so have patience with me) means not to spend an inordinate amount of time, and "lo yasok" means not to involve oneself in the matters too much. That's the only explanation that makes sense. Rambam isn't telling you to skip certain parts of the Gemarah.
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Correct me if I am wrong - but the Rebbe's main hisaskus was in the "halocho" of Moshiach. Also, the Rebbe's sichos were to bring to אהבה ויראה, which is why he always has a הוראה etc., not fanciful speculation.
The point is that we have no reason to delve into those Chazal, and come up with silly fanciful theories, as it is pointless, like the Rambam writes.
But aderabo, if you enjoy such discussions, go right ahead!
I agree with all of this (and I think I said as much above. Though if I did not make myself clear, I am doing so now.) The Rebbe clearly delves into these matters, and it follows that we should too (with his sichos as our guide). I'm not interested in fanciful theories (especially since Moshiach was born on 11 Nissan, not 9 Av ). But understanding what the Chazal say, or making an honest and informed attempt to understand what the Chazal are telling us, should be praised.
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Unread 08-11-2008, 11:36 AM   #45
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all day during kinos some guy was mumbling that Moshiach should be born on 8 Av as HaShem brings the reufah before the maka.
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Unread 08-11-2008, 12:23 PM   #46
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all day during kinos some guy was mumbling that Moshiach should be born on 8 Av as HaShem brings the reufah before the maka.
In a sense he was like Avrohom haMalach, who would spend Tisha B'Av with sitting with his head between the knees, time to time raising the head and tearfully asking: "Nu, did he come already?!"
Both were not saying kinos.
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