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Unread 04-14-2004, 01:13 PM   #1
Chossid
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Lightbulb Pas Yisroel

What is our policy about keeping Pas Yisroel?

I saw printed in Heichal Menachem I think a Yechidus that the Rebbe says that one should make sure that children will stay away from a Chashas d'Chashas Cholov Akum and Chashas d'Chashas Pas Akum.

I personally keep Pas Yisroel on a Bli Neder.

Any thoughts?
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Unread 04-14-2004, 01:50 PM   #2
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Pas yisroel on a bli neder? if this was communist russia meila but in todays day & age? by chassidishe yidden pas yisroel is a davar hapashut.
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Unread 05-05-2004, 08:31 PM   #3
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I know many, many people who officially keep pas yisroel but conviniently "forget" regarding certain products whether they are pas yisroel or whether they need to be pas yiroel, like granola bars and breakfast cereals etc.

So it's not really so poshut.
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Unread 02-17-2005, 11:27 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahus
I know many, many people who officially keep pas yisroel but conviniently "forget" regarding certain products whether they are pas yisroel or whether they need to be pas yiroel, like granola bars and breakfast cereals etc.
So what things besides bread need to be pas yisroel??
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Unread 02-17-2005, 11:49 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahus
I know many, many people who officially keep pas yisroel but conviniently "forget" regarding certain products whether they are pas yisroel or whether they need to be pas yiroel, like granola bars and breakfast cereals etc.

So it's not really so poshut.
I think that all post cerals are pas...

Then you have bishul on vegetables...
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Unread 02-18-2005, 01:10 AM   #6
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That was once true about Post cereals, but it is not anymore. The OK is not so quick to publicize the downgrading of their standards as they are regarding its superiority. I think they fancy it just fine if people go on thinking that all post is pas.

Just another example of burying one's head in the sand and conveniently "not knowing" what the deal is with pas yisroel. Anyone still think that all "OK Parve" is pas yisroel? I know people who do (even though I've told them that's a thing of the past, like ten times). If it mattered to them they'd make sure to know the facts.

And as for keeping pas yisroel "bli neder," I've never heard of such a thing. But the Shulchon Oruch is much stricter regarding pas yisroel than the halocho of chalav yisroel vs. cholov stam. The Shulchon Oruch devides it into two categories: 1) Communities that are not careful to keep pas yisroel, and even there if there is a comperable product that is pas yisroel then using pas palter is forbidden, and 2) Communities that are careful in pas yisroel, like, may I say, Lubavitch (and if that letter from the Rebbe mentioned at the beginning of this thread can be verified or located this would be blatantly the case), in which one must never eat any "pas" that is not pas yisroel save for the sole case that one is feasting at the table of someone that does not keep pas yisroel and the main food product (i.e. the bread) is not pas yisroel, only then can he partake in eating the product, out of courtesy. But not in any other scenario, ever.

Tofutti Cuties anyone? Sorry, not pas yisroel. But do the Mintz's care if anyone pays attention to that? Probably not. Does the summer camp your child attends serve or sell Tofutti Cuties to its campers? Have you cared enough to check?
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Unread 02-18-2005, 05:54 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groisah Tzaddik
So what things besides bread need to be pas yisroel??
Okay...tofutti cuties...and what else?
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Unread 02-18-2005, 06:12 AM   #8
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1. And Tofutti Cookie Crunch (the immitation ice-cream with bits of - not pas yisroel - cookies in it). 2. And, as I already mentioned, granola bars. 3. And we just brought up breakfast cereals. 4. And, of course, there's Chow-Mein noodles. 5. Graham cracker brands are sometimes overlooked. 6. And, I'm just asking here, is everything at Manischewitz certified pas yisroel? (It's not marked on the package, but maybe it is. Tam-Tams, Bagel crisps, etc.) 7. And, also that stuff called "flatbread," I can't be more specific (I'm not that much of a connoisseur) but I've seen it around a lot in various brands. 8. Oh! Don't forget pretzels, are we being careful with those brands?

Hmmm, that's about it, as far as common products. Other peripherals show up now and then, though none come to mind.
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Unread 02-18-2005, 09:37 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahus
.... But the Shulchon Oruch is much stricter regarding pas yisroel than the halocho of chalav yisroel vs. cholov stam.
These statements don't make any sense at all (especially considering the fact that AFAIK there is no halachik entity known as "cholov stam" ... at least not in SA).
The issur of cholov akum is stricter than pas palter (which we are discussing here).

Last edited by Torah613; 02-18-2005 at 09:39 AM.
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Unread 02-18-2005, 10:05 AM   #10
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Its not so poshut some Rabbis will allow pretzels... (i think its because they are made in a special way...)

And Rabbi Honaka said about a month ago that post cerals are pas yisroel.
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Unread 02-18-2005, 10:38 AM   #11
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I don't know Rabbi Hanoka, but he either meant that some Post cereals are pas yisroel, he is a liar, or he is under the false impression that all Post cereals are pas yisroel. It is simply not true.

I'm certain that if you ask him to clarify he would revise that statement or simply lie to you. However, I cannot presume why he would lie to you. Therefore I recommend that you check with your source before spreading rumors that could cause others to violate Judean law.

As far as pretzles, cite your sources. For if they are produced above a certain tempurature and they are mezonos then they have to be pas yisroel. Unless you are counting Conservative or Reform "rabbis."
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Unread 02-18-2005, 10:55 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613
The issur of cholov akum is stricter than pas palter (which we are discussing here).
Yes, but the issur of pas palter is greater than the hiddur of avoiding cholov stam, a category that did not exist in the time of the Shulchon Oruch.

Cholov stam is permitted, but there are many reasons to avoid cholov stam even when no alternative cholov is available. However, there is no heter to consume pas palter when a comparable product is available that is pas yisroel. And in a community like Lubavitch that keeps pas yisroel there is no heter for pas palter ever, except for the one instance cited above.

Last edited by Mahus; 02-18-2005 at 11:03 AM.
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Unread 02-18-2005, 12:55 PM   #13
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Still makes no sense. There is no such thing as "cholov stam", either it is chlov akum or cholov yisroel - even according to R' Moshe. For one who does not follow the chiddush of R' Moshe, the milk is assur al pi din - not a hiddur, regardless if you have other milk or not.
Concerning pas palter, OTOH, there are cases where there is room to be meikil (various minhogim etc.), even though it still is pas palter according to everyone.
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Unread 02-18-2005, 03:15 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahus
I don't know Rabbi Hanoka, but he either meant that some Post cereals are pas yisroel, he is a liar, or he is under the false impression that all Post cereals are pas yisroel. It is simply not true.

I'm certain that if you ask him to clarify he would revise that statement or simply lie to you. However, I cannot presume why he would lie to you. Therefore I recommend that you check with your source before spreading rumors that could cause others to violate Judean law.

As far as pretzles, cite your sources. For if they are produced above a certain tempurature and they are mezonos then they have to be pas yisroel. Unless you are counting Conservative or Reform "rabbis."
Rabbi Hanoka is a relative of the levys and works for the OK.

About the pretzels i cant bring any sources but im sure others can.
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Unread 02-18-2005, 03:56 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613
There is no such thing as "cholov stam", either it is chalav akum or cholov yisroel - even according to R' Moshe.
I'm certain that your intent is not to deny that there are countries that have legislated laws, and enforce them, prohibiting the addition of any other form of milk to what is sold as "cow's milk." I also suspect that you do not deny that milk is sold in these countries. The United States is one of these countries.

Perhaps you get some sort of thrill out of making a semantic game out of this. Well, milk-from-countries-that-prohibit-and-enforce-the-prohibition-of adding-any-other-milk-other-than-cow's-milk-to-what-is-sold-as-cow's-milk did not exist when the Shulchon Oruch was written. R' Moshe did not make any "chiddush" in this matter. Whichever country was the first to prohibit and enforce the prohibition of adding foreign milks to cow's milk can be credited with this innovation. If you want to call milk-from-countries-that-prohibit-and-enforce-the-prohibition-of adding-any-other-milk-other-than-cow's-milk-to-what-is-sold-as-cow's-milk "folic acid" you can call it "folic acid." If you want to call it milkenstein you can call it milkenstein. Most people who make reference to such milk have chosen the convention of calling it cholov stam. Whether this tickles your fancy or simply annoys it does not affect whether the milk exists, nor does your personal lexicon affect whether there is a term "cholov stam" that is conventionally used to describe this milk.

In R' Moshe's first letter on this matter he refers to the popular use of such milk, whatever you personally like to call it, and even that it is being used by many gedolei yisroel, and concludes that the practice to assume that this is not covered by the general issur of chalav akum mentioned in Shulchon Oruch is valid, and that this milk is not included in the issur. Nothing novel exists in the letter, as R' Moshe himself mentions that gedolei yisroel are already treating it as not being in the class of chalav akum.

This milk, conventionally called "cholov stam" (despite the fact that the term personally irks you - you can call it what you want), has no dispute surrounding the fact that it is not included in the class of chalav akum mentioned in Shulchon Oruch. There are many reasons given for not consuming it, but they do not include the contention that it is the prohibited chalav akum of the Shulchon Oruch.

In this thread we are discussing pas yisroel. The Shulchon Oruch is very adamant about the prohibition of pas palter, a) when a comparable product of pas yisroel exists, and b) in a community that keeps pas yisroel even when comparable products to the pas palter do not exist. In the second community, which is the status of the Lubavitch community, the only time pas palter is permitted is when one is a guest by someone who does not keep pas yisroel and the host is "breaking bread" on a loaf that is pas palter. In that situation, and in that situation alone (save for a case of piku'ach nefoshos when pork would also be exempt from prohibition), one is permitted to partake in consuming from that loaf.

According to the Shulchon Oruch pas palter is always prohibited to someone from the community keeping pas yisroel, without exception. This is more severe than milk-from-countries-that-prohibit-and-enforce-the-prohibition-of adding-any-other-milk-other-than-cow's-milk-to-what-is-sold-as-cow's-milk (a.k.a. cholov stam) which is not addressed in Shulchon Oruch. Despite the many reasons for not consuming such milk, the refrain from such consumption falls under the category of hiddur, while pas palter is unequivocally ossur without room for "leniency" at all.
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Unread 02-19-2005, 07:46 PM   #16
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Sorry. You don't understand R' Moshe's tshuva - according to his opinion, milk in these countries is cholov yisroel (because of these laws). If it wouldn't be in the category of CY R' Moshe wouldn't permit it. Therefore , according to those that do not accept R' Moshe's reasoning, it is cholov akum , with all the laws that entails, like kashering the keilim used by such milk etc (like R' Moshe himself notes).
Therefore, your statement that the Shulchan Aruch is more lenient concerning CA vs pas, is wrong. In SA there are all kind of leniencies concerning pas (including opinions that there is no such issur) that don't exist by milk.
I am not commenting on the custom of some Anash concerning this. Just don't misquote the SA.
[As an aside, see AR's SA OH # 603].

Last edited by Torah613; 02-19-2005 at 09:23 PM.
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Unread 02-19-2005, 08:54 PM   #17
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I don't understand how someone throwing in a piece of wood makes a difference.
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Unread 02-19-2005, 09:32 PM   #18
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Not that Torah613 needs me to back him up but...

just to add to what torah613 said and then maybe you will understand, according to R' moshe the milk produced nowadays, for which he uses the term cholov companies has the geder of anan shadi we are witness that they did not put anything else into it etc. therefore it has the geder of cholov yisroel.
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Unread 02-19-2005, 10:00 PM   #19
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I think he knows that... his point is something else altogether IMO...
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Unread 02-19-2005, 10:13 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613
I think he knows that... his point is something else altogether IMO...
If he did why did he make the statements he made? But yes you can always ask him...
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Unread 02-19-2005, 10:15 PM   #21
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once on this subject you people should know how many people in the frum world are not careful when it come to bishul yisroel a lot of people of shiksetz or nannies or housekeeper who they tell to cook for them and they do not put on the fire them self making it not bishul yiroel
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Unread 02-19-2005, 10:16 PM   #22
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Because for "olam golam" who have no idea what R' Moshe holds, it sounds good.
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Unread 02-19-2005, 10:25 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613
Sorry. You don't understand R' Moshe's tshuva - according to his opinion, milk in these countries is cholov yisroel (because of these laws).
Vos haksdu a tchainik? R' Moshe himself writes in a later letter (printed in the last volume of Igros Moshe) that there are many advantages to not drink cholov stam and to drink davka chalav yisroel and he gives a number of reasons for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaisHamikdashBa
Rabbi Hanoka is a relative of the levys and works for the OK.
Listen, I've personally done a lot of hashgocho, including the OK, and I know for a fact that not all Post is pas yisroel. I told you to check your source but all you do is restate your misinformation.
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Unread 02-19-2005, 10:40 PM   #24
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I have no idea what you are attempting to prove from that tshuva (YD v4 # 5). Do you?
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Unread 02-19-2005, 10:44 PM   #25
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Quote:
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I have no idea what you are attempting to prove from that tshuva (YD v4 # 5). Do you?
Told you...
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