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Unread 07-13-2006, 10:01 PM   #1
happygolucky
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Current situation

What do people here have to say about what's going on in israel now? I am going in 3 weeks but lots of people (friends and family) and telling me that I shouldn't. My parents are totally for it, but others are telling them that it's crazy to go into a war zone...
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Unread 07-13-2006, 10:05 PM   #2
Yankel Nosson
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Originally Posted by happygolucky View Post
What do people here have to say about what's going on in israel now? I am going in 3 weeks but lots of people (friends and family) and telling me that I shouldn't. My parents are totally for it, but others are telling them that it's crazy to go into a war zone...
Try to find a statement by the Rebbe from any tekufa that "now is the wrong time to go" due to the "current situation" in Israel. I think you won't be able to find such a statement. On the contrary, the Rebbe always emphasized that there is no place safer than Eretz Yisroel.

I hope to go also, but sooner than three weeks. I understand it's no problem booking a window seat on the ananei shamaya
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Unread 07-13-2006, 10:24 PM   #3
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I know some people who wan to say that when the Rebbe said EY is the safest place in the world, it was only in reference to the Gulf War (I) period.
But I don't believe that, b/c the Rebbe based his statments on a Possuk, which is obviously always applicable.
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Unread 07-13-2006, 10:48 PM   #4
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The posk was applicable when the Rebbe used the posuk. Otherwise, it is your own drash etc.
The expression "safest" was only used in a certain time - the Gulf War as mentioned.
[This is not an opinion whether the original poster shoould go or not, rather questioning the assumption that statements/havtochos/brochos of the Rebbe made in a certain period of time, apply always. And yes, I know Torah is nitzchiyos...].
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Unread 07-13-2006, 10:50 PM   #5
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I am also going in three weeks! I am scared, but no way thinking of canceling my ticket, Eretz yisroel is the safest place. P>S> what are you doing in eretz yisroel??/
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Unread 07-13-2006, 11:11 PM   #6
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I got accepted to THE TOP seminary in Israel, and we've been running around like crazy trying to finance my way there (which is a whole nother thread) and it didn't seem to be working.
Then Israel went into war.
So my parents asked themselves "are we going to ask for loans so we can send our daughter to a war zone?!?"
BR here i come....
Israel is the safest if you go around knowing what you're doing, if you're with the right ppl etc... when young girls go to seminary, and take busses to get out of Tzfat and don't know the difference between and Israeli and an arab, then yes it's very dangerous...
If you feel you can handle then go for it, just know what you're doing, keep your eyes wide open, and send my love to the Holy Land...
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Unread 07-14-2006, 12:09 AM   #7
TomimnotChakran
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The posk was applicable when the Rebbe used the posuk. Otherwise, it is your own drash etc.
The expression "safest" was only used in a certain time - the Gulf War as mentioned.
[This is not an opinion whether the original poster shoould go or not, rather questioning the assumption that statements/havtochos/brochos of the Rebbe made in a certain period of time, apply always. And yes, I know Torah is nitzchiyos...].
If Eretz yisroel is the "safest" place because the Possuk says "Eretz Asher... Tomid Einei H"E Ba...", then it is not a one-time statement/havtocho/brocho of the Rebbe, but rather a Nitzchiyos'dike thing. I don't know about other statements/havtochos/brochos, but this one's pretty clear.
At any rate, even if you want to learn Pshat in the Posuk to mean "safe", not "safest", i think there's still nothing to worry about.
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Unread 07-14-2006, 12:21 AM   #8
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If Eretz yisroel is the "safest" place because the Possuk says "Eretz Asher... Tomid Einei H"E Ba...", then it is not a one-time statement/havtocho/brocho of the Rebbe, but rather a Nitzchiyos'dike thing. I don't know about other statements/havtochos/brochos, but this one's pretty clear.
At any rate, even if you want to learn Pshat in the Posuk to mean "safe", not "safest", i think there's still nothing to worry about.
But there are other p'sukim, e.g., "spit them out."

And perhaps the Eyes of H' will see something not good and lead to an onesh, as during the churbanot.

If you want to stick to your theory, on the other hand, you'll have to explain how EY was the safest place while the romans were massacring Jews.

At any rate, as we head into what appears to be GoguMagog III, the mekubalim are saying it will be bad everywhere, including EY, but worse in Chu'l.

At least 1 chassidic Rebbe in EY, on the other hand, believes it may be worse here and told his grandchildren to get american travel documents.

And another Rebbe said that EY, in general, is safe only for shomrei shabbat.
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Unread 07-14-2006, 12:35 AM   #9
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Also, according to the logic that what the Rebbe said re that posuk applies in all circumstances, I dont understand: Tul Karem is in the middle of EY, so why not go there for a picnic, and hang out next door from the bomb belt factories? Nothing to be afraid of, right? I'm not making leitzonus, I'm asking a serioius question.
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Unread 07-14-2006, 01:34 AM   #10
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Also, according to the logic that what the Rebbe said re that posuk applies in all circumstances, I dont understand: Tul Karem is in the middle of EY, so why not go there for a picnic, and hang out next door from the bomb belt factories? Nothing to be afraid of, right? I'm not making leitzonus, I'm asking a serioius question.
And if when the Rebbe said it he meant only in 5751, was it ok then to go out on a picnic in such a place?
I'm just saying that the same answer would apply here, if you agree that the Rebbe meant always, which IMHO he did.

What ever the case is, 1. Tracht Gut Vet Zayn Gut, and IY"h this will end quickly with a tremendous victory for EY.
2. We have to do things A"p Derech Hateva also, so we have to say Tehilim.
3. V'haikar, now would be a good time to be mechazek Mivtzah Tefilin.
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Unread 07-14-2006, 02:04 AM   #11
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The posuk on it's own, does not davka mean safest place (which is why Torah is nitzchiyos, does not apply here, like I hinted before). The Rebbe at the time of the Gulf War, knew beruach kodshoi what will be, and used the possuk to express that fact. There are many examples for this type of thing. To quote the Rebbe, in the present time, under the present circumstance, is not correct IMVHO.
[Not to say that C"V now will be bad - but the Rebbe never addressed the current matzav].
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Unread 07-14-2006, 02:09 AM   #12
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Dear everyone here: The Rebbe said what he said as a Rebbe. The answer for our situation now is, as expressed by the Rebbe, to ask the Rebbe, and he will find a way to answer you.

Previous answers given by the Rebbe applied to those situations, and may be learned from, but may not be taken as crystal clear answers on what to do now.

Insisting that the answer of the Rebbe from before is as much an actual answer for now (and not just a part of the Rebbe's Torah to take into consideration) is as much a negation of Chabad Chasidus as claiming that nishtanu haitim, that it has no validity anymore Chas Veshalom.
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Unread 07-14-2006, 04:29 AM   #13
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I think it depends where. The north has become a battle zone, but mid-israel is ok. If I were you don't go to the north if you want a Katyusha in your head. P.S. I live in israel so i know.
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Unread 07-14-2006, 07:19 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by happygolucky View Post
What do people here have to say about what's going on in israel now? I am going in 3 weeks but lots of people (friends and family) and telling me that I shouldn't. My parents are totally for it, but others are telling them that it's crazy to go into a war zone...
Zech 14:1-2
1. Behold! A day of the Lord is coming, and your plunder shall be shared within you.

2. And I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to wage war; and the city shall be captured, and the houses shall be plundered, and the women shall be ravished, and half the city shall go forth into exile-and the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

If we are truely approaching this time period then as said by Frumkite:
Quote:
At any rate, as we head into what appears to be GoguMagog III, the mekubalim are saying it will be bad everywhere, including EY, but worse in Chu'l.
Then I would question if it is safe. BUT verse 3 says:

3. And the Lord shall go forth and wage war with those nations, like the day he waged war on the day of the battle.

Therefore I would really hate to be in one of the other nations. So it really sounds like a toss up.
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Unread 07-14-2006, 06:24 PM   #15
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But there are other p'sukim, e.g., "spit them out."

And perhaps the Eyes of H' will see something not good and lead to an onesh, as during the churbanot.

If you want to stick to your theory, on the other hand, you'll have to explain how EY was the safest place while the romans were massacring Jews.

At any rate, as we head into what appears to be GoguMagog III, the mekubalim are saying it will be bad everywhere, including EY, but worse in Chu'l.

At least 1 chassidic Rebbe in EY, on the other hand, believes it may be worse here and told his grandchildren to get american travel documents.

And another Rebbe said that EY, in general, is safe only for shomrei shabbat.
Don't worry Frumkite, be'H things are going to be good.
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...The signs of our Sages have already been fulfilled regarding the end of the time of the exile and the time of the redemption, including the sign in the Yalkut Shimoni[1] (which has been publicized recently): "Rabbi Itzchak said - the year when the King Messiah will be revealed, all of the Kings of the Nations will be contending one with the other, the King of Persia will contend with the Arabic King and the Arabic King will go to Aram to take council from them etc., and all of the nations of the world will be in an uproar and will be terrified and they will fall upon their faces and they will be grasped with pains like the labor pains of a woman giving birth, and Israel will be in an uproar and will be terrified and they will say where will shall we come or go, where shall we come or go, and He will say to them, My children do not be afraid, all that I have done I have only done for your sakes, why are you afraid - do not be afraid - the time of your redemption has arrived, and not like the first redemption is the last redemption since (after) the first redemption - you still had suffering and subjugation to the Kingdoms following it. [And thereafter the Yalkut continues:] Our Rabbis taught - in the hour when the King Messiah comes, he will stand on the roof of the Beis HaMikdash (holy Temple) and he will announce to Israel saying - humble one's the time of your redemption has arrived".

So too shall it be for us, that we have lechatchila (from the outset) not from what to have fear, as we already have the assurance that "do not be afraid (also from a lashon of havtacha/assurance), the time of your redemption has arrived",

And so too shall it be for us, that Moshiach Tzidkeinu / Our Righteous Messiah should in actuality come already and should already stand on the roof of the Beis HaMikdash and announce saying, that Moshiach has already come!

Amen - so may it be His will.

1) Isaiah remez 499


(from the sicha of Shabbos Parshas Re'eh, Mevarchim HaChodesh Elul 5750 - quoted in the sefer Besoras HaGeulah p.1)
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Unread 07-15-2006, 01:12 PM   #16
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It seems to me a tremendous presumption that the matzav ruchni now is equal to that of the Gulf War, especially considering that then there was no violation of halachos of pikuach nefesh by the gov't (AFAIK), something that the Rebbe warned countless times would lead bederech ha'teva to korbonos r"l Hy"d, which it did and it is.

Another comment: I find it utterly absurd that everyone is getting excited: "did you hear? there's a war going on in EY?" Duh!! There's been a war going on for months and years!! Kassam rockets aren't an act of war?! Sniper attacks aren't an act of war?! Homicide bombings aren't an act of war?! The only difference is that before the gov't could get away with ignoring it and pretending it doesn't exist, and now it can't, so they're retaliating, but yet again doing a halfway job, leaving the murderers to come and fight another day. All I can say about the gov't is "with friends like these ... "
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Unread 07-15-2006, 03:57 PM   #17
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JHH - your own quote end with the Rebbe saying, "so may it be the will of H'" - obviously, the Rebbe was hoping, not gauranteeing, that M should come peacefully.

The 1100 Jews killed in terrorism in the last 5 yrs means it already hasn't come in the most peaceful way.


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The only difference is that before the gov't could get away with ignoring it and pretending it doesn't exist, and now it can't, so they're retaliating, but yet again doing a halfway job, leaving the murderers to come and fight another day.
Nlaws,
Halavai the eirev rav gov't should be fighting "half-way." There are standing orders not to strike an arab missile launching crew, even if they are within seconds of sending off a missile, if there are civilian arabs nearby. The arabs are now bringing children to the launch sites and stopping almost all attacks on their sites. The only thing it's dangerous to be in Gaza & Lebanon is an empty building or asphalt.
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Unread 07-15-2006, 11:16 PM   #18
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this will end quickly with a tremendous victory for EY.
I don't see how a victory is possible if we're not fighting.
The only way we could win with coward like the gov't preventing the army from doing its job is with a miracle of the sort where the camp of Sancheriv died overnight.
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Unread 07-15-2006, 11:46 PM   #19
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JHH - your own quote end with the Rebbe saying, "so may it be the will of H'" - obviously, the Rebbe was hoping, not gauranteeing, that M should come peacefully.

The 1100 Jews killed in terrorism in the last 5 yrs means it already hasn't come in the most peaceful way.




Nlaws,
Halavai the eirev rav gov't should be fighting "half-way." There are standing orders not to strike an arab missile launching crew, even if they are within seconds of sending off a missile, if there are civilian arabs nearby. The arabs are now bringing children to the launch sites and stopping almost all attacks on their sites. The only thing it's dangerous to be in Gaza & Lebanon is an empty building or asphalt.
perhaps these orders are secheldig because if they hit large numbers of civilians, the internal pressure on GWB to order Israel to stop will mount. It is more importatnt to acheive the objective, and unfortunately, since we are still in Golus, we have to take GWB and the State Dept into account.
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Unread 07-16-2006, 03:21 AM   #20
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perhaps these orders are secheldig because if they hit large numbers of civilians, the internal pressure on GWB to order Israel to stop will mount. It is more importatnt to acheive the objective, and unfortunately, since we are still in Golus, we have to take GWB and the State Dept into account.
I understand this to have been R' Shach's position (that Israel should not fully defend itself), not the Rebbe's position (the Rebbe said that delaying full self defense is like delaying a medical treatment).

Can anyone more familiar with the Rebbe's pronouncments come up with any time the Rebbe said that Israel should restrain itself to avoid lachatz bein leumi, i.e., "to worry about the goyim?"
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Unread 07-16-2006, 07:46 AM   #21
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To come to magdiel's defense (though the irony of him being accused of taking a certain position is not lost on me (in light of a certain recent thread....vedal) - and yes, this may be another siman of M...) - he is not justifying that position, just giving a rational for certain peoples action, as mistaken as they may be.
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Unread 07-16-2006, 10:13 AM   #22
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B"H
Just a comment, take it for what you think it's worth but... I don't believe we should be putting down the Israeli gov't at this point. We can say that perhaps they should be doing more etc... but most of us are not there are the battlefield, on the airplanes, and tanks, and it is of my opinion that we cannot call the gov't "coward" there are lives at stake. Soldiers being murdered. How does it feel for a soldier to murder civilians-even enemies?
You ever went into war? My father did, most men growing up envision war as some amazing thing, showing the pride of your country etc... war is disgusting, evil, and traumatizing-although it's something that must be done. But the killing of lives is not easy.
Murdering is not easy-even when you're killing murderers!
As I'm sure you know we have the a very strong Middah of Rachmonus, it is both what is a gift but can become a downfall-but never ever ever call it cowardice. It is compassion, it is benevolence. It is the VALUE OF ANY HUMAN LIFE which is what these animals on the other side LACK. When we get rid of that, we are no greater then they are.
When you go off the computer, and go out and join the front lines, and start to fight in the IDF then come back and tell us that they're cowards! I highly doubt it.
By putting down the gov't we are once again creating various parties of opinions that lead to splits in Klal Yisroel. I'm reminded of Bnei Yisroel durring Chorban Bayis, and the three different parties-and in truth that's what led to the destruction more than anything...

Me must find out what it is that our RABBONIM, and the GEDOLAI HADOR (even if they're not Lubavitch, they're still great-and don't kill me for saying so) have to say about it all. If they think we should be doing more then you can disagree with the army.
Calling the army cowards is like asking someone:
"why didn't you attack the guy who went and burnt your house?"
And the person replies:
"Becuase i was busy getting my children out of it"
My cousins are sleeping in bomb shelters, my grandmother's kibbutz was hit, my cousins can't really leave their house, JEWS are dying. Let the army protect us and do as it sees fit.
When you put an army down durring a war you're putting down the whole moral of the ENTIRE NATION including us here in the USA. That's awful. Let's all have the Emunah that Hashem will give the army the strength and Chochmah to continue doing the right thing.
Let us Daven.
Let us have stronger ties of Ahavas Yisroel.
Let us have full faith in Hashem.
Let the army and gov't fight as it see fits.
Let us all Daven and BELIEVE that Klal Yisroel will once again emerge victorious, but this time with the coming of Moshiach!
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Unread 07-16-2006, 11:19 AM   #23
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To come to magdiel's defense (though the irony of him being accused of taking a certain position is not lost on me (in light of a certain recent thread....vedal) - and yes, this may be another siman of M...) - he is not justifying that position, just giving a rational for certain peoples action, as mistaken as they may be.
Is this correct, Magdiel, that you yourself don't buy the "America doesn't let" line?
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Unread 07-16-2006, 11:30 AM   #24
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B"H
When you put an army down durring a war you're putting down the whole moral of the ENTIRE NATION including us here in the USA. That's awful. Let's all have the Emunah that Hashem will give the army the strength and Chochmah to continue doing the right thing.
  • The purpose is not to "put down the army." Adaraba, it's to demand that the politicians stop overriding the army's plans for defending Jewish lives.
  • The goal is to have emunah that good actions will be rewarded, not blind emunah in our treasonous leaders, who give land. guns & Jewish tax dollars to our enemies, while locking up Torah observant Jews who throw rocks back at arabs who stone them.
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Unread 07-16-2006, 11:42 AM   #25
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Just a comment, take it for what you think it's worth but... I don't believe we should be putting down the Israeli gov't at this point.
they got us in this mess, by giving away land in Azah vital to security, by not making a pre-emptive strike against Chizbollah, by giving away the land in South Lebanon under Barak, by rewarding and thus emboldening terrorists, and right now, by preventing the army from doing what it needs to do to protect Jews because of the fear of "what the goyim will say"! [...]
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