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Unread 05-02-2002, 11:18 PM   #1
PeaceInIsrael
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exclusivity vs responsibility

does a mosod have an obligation (responsibility) to accept every child from its community, regardless of the childs academic level?

i personally think its an outrage for a school not to accept a child bc the child isnt the best learner and they are afraid that it will ruin the schools high standing, academically.
this kind of attitude reminds me of those hospitals who refuse to try to help an extremely ill patient bc the patient might die, and that would ruin their "amazing" tract record.

****
a mechaneches in a "chassidishe" girls schools once told me (on the first day of school!)
<<look at OUR girls, arent they wonderful, look how chasidish they are?>>
all i could think of was: they are not YOUR girls, you didnt raise them or give them any education yet, what are you taking credit for? all you did was choose from a list.

i understand the necessity to keep the schools up to a certain level, but i think its come to a point where we a totally crossing the line and loosing sight of the PURPOSE of the schools to begin with.

what is the schooling about? the name, the exclusivity or the education jewish children?
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Unread 05-03-2002, 12:00 AM   #2
noahidelaws
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BS"D There are several issues here:

1) Standard of religious academic achievement.

2) Standard of secular academic achievement.

3) Risk that the children from non-Observant homes will inflict spiritual harm on those more insulated and innocent.

If the first point is the only problem, then I would say that the Torah-observant parents are being selfish. If they truly want to give their children a higher standard of Torah knowledge, that is not a reason to deny the BASICS to another child, who deserves the best Torah education that he can receive no less than the more privileged child.

If the second point is the problem, then I would say that the principal is being worse than selfish... I would use the word corrupt.

If anything should be a concern, it is point no. 3. But that has already been discussed in the "Education For All – At The Expense Of Our Own Children?" thread in the Shlichus section.

<<all i could think of was: they are not YOUR girls, you didnt raise them or give them any education yet, what are you taking credit for?>>

Did you only think that or also tell her?
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Unread 03-26-2004, 12:06 PM   #3
iamachassid
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even though I wouldn't say such a thing every time I would look at her or one of her students I would feel some unease and a bit of disgust
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Unread 03-28-2004, 09:52 AM   #4
Bittul
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Re: exclusivity vs responsibility

Quote:
Originally posted by PeaceInIsrael
does a mosod have an obligation (responsibility) to accept every child from its community, regardless of the childs academic level?
I would say yes (in the moral sense) - IF the parents commit to being one hundred percent behind the school. For the school to accept every child who is then permitted by their parents to do as they wish will turn the classroom into a joke.
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Unread 03-28-2004, 09:31 PM   #5
LION
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To illustrate Bittul's point...

A parent meets the principal [I heard this from the principal] and tells him he wants that they should make his child grow up to be a "chashidishe' bochur ...and the principal is looking at the parent who was very far from 'chasidish' to say the least [or as some would say he was MOL]......

(To claify this that the parent was not chasidishwas not because of where the parent's grew up...iow the grandparents were chasidish...)
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Unread 03-28-2004, 09:57 PM   #6
RebYid
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Waht is wrong with a parent wanting his children to be MORE that he is himself?
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Unread 03-28-2004, 10:19 PM   #7
ChilinInCali
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NOthing. but it only works if the child sees his parents as trying their best to go upwards. if they come from a higher level, and want their child to be on the level where they grew up, while being perfectlt content in the matzav where they are now, that just doesn't work. kids don't buy that.
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Unread 03-29-2004, 12:32 AM   #8
RebYid
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I beg to differ. If the kehila is strong and the school (peer pressure) positive, I think it could work. Of course, if those too and just like the parents, then you would be right.
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Unread 03-29-2004, 01:04 AM   #9
LION
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Quote:
Originally posted by RebYid
Waht is wrong with a parent wanting his children to be MORE that he is himself?[/b]
As ChilinInCali said , nothing but that wasn't the point.

Quote:
I beg to differ. If the kehila is strong and the school (peer pressure) positive, I think it could work . Of course, if those too and just like the parents, then you would be right.
Of course it "could " work.

But the point was\is that don't excpect the school to work miracles while the parents sit back......
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Unread 03-29-2004, 02:01 AM   #10
ChilinInCali
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Rebyid, a kid is inspired by his parents, so why should he take on something his parents dropped? Of course it could happen, and Boruch Hashem it does happen many times. But, that is not the natural order of things.
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Unread 03-29-2004, 02:51 AM   #11
RebYid
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Natural, desirable? I never calimed that. However, I know quite a lot of frum (non-Chabad) parents who are bringing their offspring up to be frummer than they are. They are quite open about that, and in the majority of cases, it works.

Something tells me that we in Chabad have gotten used to having low expectations.
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Unread 03-29-2004, 11:05 AM   #12
daas
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Quote:
Originally posted by RebYid
Something tells me that we in Chabad have gotten used to having low expectations.
I think its the results not the expectations....but it seems that b"h people are startimg to wake up.
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Unread 03-29-2004, 12:45 PM   #13
Bittul
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Quote:
Originally posted by RebYid
I beg to differ. If the kehila is strong and the school (peer pressure) positive, I think it could work. Of course, if those too and just like the parents, then you would be right.
No, the Kehilla won't work. Only if the child is no longer in the parents home will this work. In other words, when they go away to Yeshivah.
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Unread 03-29-2004, 02:11 PM   #14
Jude
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Quote:
Originally posted by RebYid
However, I know quite a lot of frum (non-Chabad) parents who are bringing their offspring up to be frummer than they are. They are quite open about that, and in the majority of cases, it works.
it's working all over the place, true, but I'm not so sure that it's because the parents are raising them that way. I think not. There's a general trend, this move to the right (with children from MO homes opting to cover their hair, not wear pants, etc.), and children from yeshivish homes who grew up with TV, not having them in their own homes. Frum society is getting "frummer," the Circus (only male performers etc.) being yet another example.

So what I see happening is, the children of your "basic frum" family from the 60's and 70's who were raised on TV, not chalav Yisrael, public library, college, short sleeves for their girls until an advanced age, maybe even bas mitzva, etc. etc. are MUCH frummer when raising their own kids. Their parents did NOT raise them that way, but since they were sent to yeshivish mosdos, and society is moving to the right, in THEIR homes, there is no TV, Jewish reading material, there's yashan maybe, etc.

note: my observation is not about Lub. society
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Unread 03-29-2004, 04:50 PM   #15
RebYid
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And now for your observations about Lub society which is moving to the .........?
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Unread 03-29-2004, 05:22 PM   #16
RebYid
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jude

Their parents did NOT raise them that way, but since they were sent to yeshivish mosdos, and society is moving to the right, in THEIR homes, there is no TV, Jewish reading material, there's yashan maybe, etc.
What you are saying only strengthens my argument. If such large numbers of children are moving to the right, INSPITE of their parents’ wishes, sure at least the same would apply if the process was what the parent actually wanted?
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Unread 03-29-2004, 10:07 PM   #17
Jude
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Quote:
Originally posted by RebYid
And now for your observations about Lub society which is moving to the .........?
I think we've had similar conversations before, and I may have posted this elsewhere, that a mashpia observed that the "good ones" today are better than ever, while the others are ...

Quote:
What you are saying only strengthens my argument. If such large numbers of children are moving to the right, IN SPITE of their parents’ wishes, sure at least the same would apply if the process was what the parent actually wanted?
what I think needs analyzing is what role the parents play in this move to the right

(btw - I think there's a third category: 1) in spite of parents' wishes 2) when the parents want it 3) the parents didn't think much about it, it just happened, their daughter came back from Israel and doesn't wear short sleeves anymore - the parents are okay with that, also okay if she didn't do that, you know - whatever makes you happy dear)

some points:

we all know of stories in which a child from an IRRELIGIOUS home, was sent to a frum school and was instrumental in changing his home around. How does this happen? Without getting into a long dissertation here, there are various factors - why the parents sent the child to that school, a very involved teacher, a very determined and inspired youngster, etc.

it gets harder the frummer the parents are bec. often parents resent their children bringing home what they consider chumros or the children being "frummies"

a lot depends on the relationship between parents and children, let's say a child is inspired by an inspired rebi or morah - how do the parents react? with approval and appreciation or grumbling and resentment? in turn, how does the child react to grumbling and resentment - get uninspired bec. the home doesn't support the teacher's message or become more determined to do things their own way ...

most, if not all, educators will concur that when parents and children are working towards the same goals, the situation is ideal, and when they're heading in different directions, particularly when mixed messages are given, then you can expect trouble

so when a MO Lubavitcher parent tells the principal that he wants his son to be chasidish, something is amiss (or maybe it would have been wise for the principal to ask him what he means by that ...)

it's not that he can't want better for his child, of course he can, but he is sabotaging his child's ability to achieve what he wants him to achieve

can the child overcome the mixed message ("I'm not chasidish, but I want you to be chasidish"), yes, but how will this happen? An act of G-d? A dynamic Rebbi? A great bunch of Chasidishe friends? could happen but the parent shouldn't count on it
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Unread 03-29-2004, 10:14 PM   #18
iamachassid
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I think category four is as someone pointed out, when the parents say they want it but give mixed messages to the school and the child by not caring to do it on their own
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Unread 03-30-2004, 03:06 AM   #19
ChilinInCali
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Quote:
I think we've had similar conversations before, and I may have posted this elsewhere, that a mashpia observed that the "good ones" today are better than ever, while the others are ...
I can't believe someone said that. the amolike good bochurim were on a much higher level than today. whether you're talking lomdos, chassidishkeit (as in limud hachasidus and avoidas hachasidus). This is an across the board thing, not just in Lubavitch. There are much more goo dbochurim than there used to be, but the level is lower, yeridas hadoirois is a real thing.
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Unread 03-30-2004, 03:18 AM   #20
mordechai7215
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It depends how far back "amol" goes. I've heard that as compared to the amolike buchorim of the 60's 70's, that while today there are more buchorim who are not so with the program (b'loshon nkiyah) there is a zeh lumas zeh in Good buchorim. That is to say, that in those times there were more "middle buchorim", that the Rebbe kind of kept everyone together. But to compare us to utvotsk, lubavitch etc, if they were like melachim etc.
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Unread 03-30-2004, 09:33 AM   #21
Torah613
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A lot has to do with population growth...But I believe Chillin is correct.
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Unread 03-30-2004, 12:40 PM   #22
Jude
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Mashpia R' YY Offen says that R' Shlomo Chaim Kesselman said (i.e. decades ago) that if today's bachurim apply themselves (getting them to apply themselves is another story), they achieve far more in far less time and with far less effort than bachurim of yesteryear.
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Unread 03-31-2004, 04:59 PM   #23
Jude
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a related thread:

http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/show...=&threadid=387

maybe post there, if it's more relevant to that thread
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