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View Poll Results: Who is MAINLY to blame for the surrender of Azah?
The arab terrorists. 1 10.00%
America, for pressuring concessions or else cutting foreign aid to Israel. 0 0%
The Israeli Gov't and Sharon in particular. 5 50.00%
The Nationalist leadership, especially the Yesha Council, for failing to sufficiently protest. 3 30.00%
The Religious Zionist settlers themselves, for calling the secular state "ischalta di'geulah," ch"v. 3 30.00%
Citizens of Israel, for sitting idly by out of misguided loyalty to the gov't. 6 60.00%
The Jewish people worldwide, for same, despite increased danger to all Jews. 3 30.00%
Rabbis worldwide, for violating lo saamod al dam rei'acha, fearing "what the baalei batim will say." 3 30.00%
Chabad rabbis, despite their Rebbe calling for protest more than any other Jewish leader, for same. 2 20.00%
Lubavitchers in general, for same. 3 30.00%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 10. You may not vote on this poll

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Unread 09-25-2005, 02:38 PM   #1
noahidelaws
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Responsibility For The Suicidal Surrender of Azah

Aside from Hashem, who in your opinion is MAINLY responsible for the suicidal surrender of Azah?

(Note: you can vote for more than one option.)

May we learn our lessons from this expulsion, and the ikar: see Moshiach NOW.

Last edited by noahidelaws; 09-25-2005 at 03:08 PM.
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Unread 09-25-2005, 08:46 PM   #2
Torah613
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And the point of this "poll" is ... what?
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Unread 09-25-2005, 09:25 PM   #3
mordechai7215
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obviously once we find the problem we'll be able to fix it . . .
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Unread 09-25-2005, 09:40 PM   #4
Torah613
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Oh. I see.
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Unread 09-25-2005, 09:42 PM   #5
Nissan
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Noahide, all you ever do is tell others what to do. You seriously need to get a life. It's one thing to suggest something to someone (i.e. "Lead a horse to water") but to give everyone Mussar in such an extreme way is just wrong (i.e. "Forcing the horse's head under the water").

Give it up and go find targets elswhere.
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Unread 09-25-2005, 09:48 PM   #6
Torah613
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Someone has to save the world.
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Unread 09-25-2005, 10:09 PM   #7
Maskil
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No matter which cause, it's only about blame and negativity. " 'LO!' Kein hareshoim".
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Unread 07-10-2006, 10:32 AM   #8
noahidelaws
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The simple answer to your questions:

See the sicha on p. 79 http://www.sos-israel.com/karativeyenone.pdf

"The purpose of the investigation was not to offend anyone, but only to know who caused the error, in order that in the future it not be repeated. But the religious [parties] cried that there's no need."

So too here: this issue needs to be discussed and we need to understand where we went wrong, because all of Klal Yisroel has a chelek in the matzav in EY, and we don't want a repeat of the failure last year to save GK, ch"v.

I ask all members to please vote and contribute to intelligent discussion on this crucial issue.
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Unread 07-11-2006, 12:07 AM   #9
magdiel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noahidelaws
The simple answer to your questions:

See the sicha on p. 79 http://www.sos-israel.com/karativeyenone.pdf

"The purpose of the investigation was not to offend anyone, but only to know who caused the error, in order that in the future it not be repeated. But the religious [parties] cried that there's no need."

So too here: this issue needs to be discussed and we need to understand where we went wrong, because all of Klal Yisroel has a chelek in the matzav in EY, and we don't want a repeat of the failure last year to save GK, ch"v.

I ask all members to please vote and contribute to intelligent discussion on this crucial issue.
thank you Noachide for bringing this important isuue to the fore. The way you are being attacked and derided, one would think you are even a Moshichist, perish the thought.
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Unread 07-11-2006, 02:32 AM   #10
noahidelaws
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Thanks for thanking me, but let's stick to the issue, please. Thanks for voting. Do you have any comments?
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Unread 07-11-2006, 04:16 PM   #11
Frumkite
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I asked Moshe Feiglin about adding a Noachide portion to his website which, among other things, would explain to American goyim the importance of not siding against Israel (by funding the PLO, pressuring Israel to release terrorists and turn over land to the PLO, etc).

Feiglin said that, while he's not opposed to such noachide outreach, the problem in Eretz Yisrael is a Jewish problem and only by defeating the enemy within (Leftist Jews) can we be successful.

He added that a goy's job is simply "not to make the situation more difficult" (by funding the PLO, giving Israeli Leftists excuses to free terrorists (by claiming "America wants this"), etc.).
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Unread 07-11-2006, 05:39 PM   #12
magdiel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noahidelaws
Aside from Hashem, who in your opinion is MAINLY responsible for the suicidal surrender of Azah?

(Note: you can vote for more than one option.)

May we learn our lessons from this expulsion, and the ikar: see Moshiach NOW.
Some nuance. I don't agree that it is proper to say "Hashem" is "responsible. Also. it not suicidal but murderous, as The Olmerts and Sharons did not expose their families to risk; The greatest culpability should go to the "frum" leaders who ignored the Rebbe's warnings about shlemus Eretz Yisroel and Mihu Yehudi and one leads to the other.
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Unread 07-12-2006, 09:57 AM   #13
noahidelaws
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Frumkite: A goy's job is not just to not hinder, but to help:
Quote:
When Non-Jews Support the Jewish People, They Too Benefit


When non-Jews provide assistance for the Jewish people in all their needs, in the spirit of the verse, “Their kings will be your craftsmen,” [Isaiah, 49:23] this is also beneficial for non-Jews, for then the Jewish people can intensify their observance of the three foundations of the world. [“The world stands upon three things: Torah, prayer, and loving kindness.” Chapters of the Fathers, 1:2] This will therefore bring a fortification of the entire world, for non-Jews as well. The world will then regain stability, and “stand.”

If this is true of the attitude of non-Jews to Jews wherever they live, it surely applies to the attitude of non-Jews to Jews in the Holy Land, “the King’s [G–d’s] palace,” [cf. Numbers Rabba, chapter 19] and all the more so in the Holy City of Jerusalem, “the village of the great king.” [Psalms, 48:3]

Hitva’aduyot 5743, Vol. 1, p. 40.
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Unread 07-12-2006, 10:30 AM   #14
noahidelaws
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magdiel View Post
Some nuance. I don't agree that it is proper to say "Hashem" is "responsible.
Please elaborate on this. What of the words of Tanya, "al ha'nizak, kvar nigzar min hashomayim," and the ma'amar Chazal on the posuk, "ki yipol ha'nofel mimenu"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by magdiel View Post
Also. it not suicidal but murderous, as The Olmerts and Sharons did not expose their families to risk.
Granted, but inasmuch as they represent the collective, and inasmuch as the collective supported it, it was suicidal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by magdiel View Post
The greatest culpability should go to the "frum" leaders who ignored the Rebbe's warnings about shlemus Eretz Yisroel and Mihu Yehudi and one leads to the other.
If you really believe so, I'm surprised that in your vote above you didn't attribute responsibility to "Rabbis worldwide, for violating lo saamod al dam rei'acha, fearing 'what the baalei batim will say.'" "or to "Chabad rabbis, despite their Rebbe calling for protest more than any other Jewish leader, for same."
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Unread 10-19-2006, 11:05 AM   #15
noahidelaws
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I guess it's fitting to post this here: a booklet discussing the lessons from the Gush Katif and Tzafon Hashomron expulsion, a year later, by Moshe Feiglin.
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