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Unread 07-16-2002, 08:11 PM   #1
lastresort
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Question womans learning

i was wondering what the issue with girls learning gemora? having gone through a lubavitch system we always learnt it but many people have been saying that it is forbiden for woman to learn it and have quoted stuff where they say it is forbiden?!? is it or isnt it, and if it is ok what is the halachik source for it?
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Unread 07-16-2002, 08:25 PM   #2
Jude
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there is related discussion in the threads entitled Women's Role. You can also look in the Teen section for the thread called, "A formal framework for women's learning" and "Girls' Learning Camp" as well as Women and Avoda. The basic answer seems to be - since women are intellectually stimulated by secular subjects, Jewish subjects should be no less stimulating.

http://www.aishkodesh.org/articles/l...R&left=&pgno=1

here's an interesting article that goes through the issues concerning women and Torah study
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Unread 08-16-2002, 12:31 AM   #3
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It's only a new thing for this generation, decided by the Rebeiim.
The ones who quote the Halachas are correct, just that the Rebbe told us that NOWADAYS girls should (it actually seems to me to be saying "could", but whatever) learn Gemara.
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Unread 08-18-2002, 08:20 PM   #4
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In Satmer they only educate the girls with general yiras shomaim....and look at the results
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Unread 08-18-2002, 08:35 PM   #5
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I'm not sure what the results are. I think many of the Satmar women are content in the roles designated for them, but that a certain number, have no idea what percent, are dissatisfied.

The reason why, for the most part, the system works for them, is because their minds aren't stimulated by anything much, not in the secular studies department either. That's the Rebbe's point - that if girls' minds are going to be stimulated by math, science etc. then they must have a limudei kodesh education that is equally as stimulating.
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Unread 08-21-2002, 10:38 PM   #6
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So it would be better to throw both the secular subjects and the Gemara out the window?
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Unread 08-22-2002, 07:38 AM   #7
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From Halacha we definitely see that it would have been better if women did not have to learn gemoroh as this is deemed as a heter of eis laasos, a heter because it is necessary for the times.

As for the satmar women, the ones who need an outside outlet for their brilliance find it in various appropriate ways, as in brilliantly running massive chesed organizations, the logistics of which rival running big corporations, and so on.
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Unread 08-30-2002, 11:54 AM   #8
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The mitzva of Hakhel, when all the Jewish people had to gather, once every seven years in Yerushalayim to hear the Torah being read, is explained by Rashi based on the Gemara [Chagiga 3a]: "The men come to learn; the women come to listen; and the children come to bring a reward to those who bring them."

Torah being timeless and always relevant, it doesn't seem possible to say that the reason that women came to listen (rather than to learn) is because in those days, women were not learned (in addition to which, there were times when women too were very learned like in the time of Chizkiyahu). So was it because they were watching the children and couldn't concentrate, so they could listen but not learn?
And was what learned anyway? Didn't the king just read from the Torah? Did he explain anything? Give a learned lecture?
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Unread 08-30-2002, 12:56 PM   #9
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Why is there a need to knock Satmer or any other Chassidisher group?

Where is the Ahavas Yisroel?
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Unread 08-30-2002, 03:00 PM   #10
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Reb Yeshonsen, I read the same posts I didnt notice any Knock on satmar woman, just trying to uderstand the difference between us and them.

We also need Ahavas Yisroel and "ahvas Yeshonosen"
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Unread 08-30-2002, 03:05 PM   #11
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I also understood the comment <<In Satmer they only educate the girls with general yiras shomaim....and look at the results>> as a negative one. Since at least two people understood it this way, it seems only right that the author of the post clarify what he meant.
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Unread 08-30-2002, 03:14 PM   #12
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I uderstood it as a positive statement, they they are quite tzniesdik and frum without study, and I thought from your reply that you also understood that way. but maybe I am
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Unread 09-18-2002, 09:06 PM   #13
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Allright Jude clarfication:

If you do not give girls a Torah education they will not appreciate their heritage and it can be that they R"L will go off the derech.

And I heard from my father that you takeh have a higher percentage of Satmer girls going off the derech.

That is what I meant with "and look at the results".

Kol Tuv
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Unread 09-18-2002, 09:12 PM   #14
Jude
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interesting that your father says that when I have NEVER heard of Satmar girls going off, though I've heard of Satmar boys going off. What is the source of your father's information?
and what does "higher" mean? higher than what? than Beis Yaakov? than Beis Rivka?
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Unread 09-18-2002, 09:39 PM   #15
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He read it in one of the jewish publications Hamaor possibley but I am uncertian to the exact source I'll ask him.
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Unread 05-13-2003, 05:41 PM   #16
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A Chasid by the name of Rabbi Yosef Solomon from Eretz Yisrael describes how strongly he felt about chinuch al taharas ha'kodesh for girls. He said, "I resolved that at least my own daughters would receive that kind of education ... The older they got the more serious were the subjects I taught them. We started with Tanya, Ha'Yom Yom and the Rambam's Sefer Ha'Mitzvos, and progessed to Torah Ohr.

"Boruch Hashem by the time they reached bas mitzva we had completed the entire Torah Ohr! We also covered an amazing amount of Rambam, as they studied a full perek each day over several years. Again, before bas mitzva, they had successfully completed the entire cycle of Rambam.

"In Iyar of 5754 I informed the Rebbe of their progess and R' Groner told me that he read my letter aloud. I am sure the Rebbe derived much nachas.

"To borrow a phrase, all I can say is that froyen zaynen nit aderesh (women are not different)."
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Unread 05-13-2003, 09:18 PM   #17
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WOW

He must have put in an incredible amount of time and effort into their Chinuch. Much more than the average parent or teacher can give.

It is also amazing that the girls were able to grasp (or at least I hope they did!) Torah Ohr at such a tender age. Even now I have trouble with it.
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Unread 05-13-2003, 09:29 PM   #18
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What I never understood is why is the approach to girl's learning different from boys. Even if we accept that all girls, as a matter of course, will not be learning Gemora and Tosafos be'iyun - why can't they learn Tanach, SA, Chassidus etc, be'chavrusa in a Bias Medrash, like boys.

From my experience, when it comes to memory, language skills etc, the girls will soon outshine the boys.
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Unread 05-13-2003, 09:39 PM   #19
Torah613
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Ah - so you do know the reason!
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Unread 05-13-2003, 09:46 PM   #20
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Well this is true. In goyishe schools today, girls are out-doing boys in almost every subject. In many colleges, the intake of females is higher than males.

You really think we are just scared?
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Unread 05-13-2003, 09:49 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by RebYid
Well this is true. In goyishe schools today, girls are out-doing boys in almost every subject.
Not math!

Actually, one of my favourite professors is female. She explained things better than anyone else. Plus, you could go into her office with a puppy-dog face and get your way.
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Unread 05-13-2003, 09:56 PM   #22
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I said ALMOST every subject. Math and physics are an exception, and probably have something in common with Gemora be'iyun. I never claimed that there is no difference between the general strengths and weakness of the genders.

The areas I specified, though, I think girls would excel at.
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Unread 05-13-2003, 10:06 PM   #23
Jude
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go on -tell me more!
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Unread 05-13-2003, 10:15 PM   #24
RebYid
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What did you think, I was a misogynist?
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Unread 05-14-2003, 09:42 AM   #25
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more and more cases today where the mother learns gemara with her son as the father cannot..... nu
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