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Unread 01-24-2007, 05:58 PM   #1
NuToTheShechuna
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Standing while drinking

Is it a problem to stand while drinking? Some guys in 770 were talking about it, that there are some problems with a water fountain. Can anyone fill me in?
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Unread 01-25-2007, 01:02 AM   #2
Smirnoff
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ראה מס' גיטין סוף דף ע' ע"א, ובשו"ע אדמו"ר הזקן סי' רצו הל' ט"ו שאין לת"ח לאכול או לשתות מעומד
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Unread 01-25-2007, 12:10 PM   #3
Vayaaminu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smirnoff View Post
ראה מס' גיטין סוף דף ע' ע"א, ובשו"ע אדמו"ר הזקן סי' רצו הל' ט"ו שאין לת"ח לאכול או לשתות מעומד
Translation: See masechta Gittin end of daf 70a, and in the Alter Rebbe's Shulchan Aruch siman 296 halacha 15 that talmidei chachomim (torah scholars) should not eat or drink while standing.

Question: What are the reasons given in the gemorrah and/or ARSA? Why is it improper to eat or drink while standing? Thanks.
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Unread 01-25-2007, 03:34 PM   #4
Torah613
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Lichora 2 sources that are saying seperate things (for different reasons).
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Unread 01-25-2007, 03:52 PM   #5
Smirnoff
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613 View Post
Lichora 2 sources that are saying seperate things (for different reasons).
That is correct.
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Unread 01-25-2007, 06:49 PM   #6
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Therefore, based on the halachik source in AR SA, there should be no problem for the average Joe (though smorgasbords to remind me of "grazing" ...).
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Unread 01-25-2007, 11:47 PM   #7
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Therefore, based on the halachik source in AR SA, there should be no problem for the average Joe .
לאו דוקא

והטעם - מצינו במס' דרך ארץ (זוטא) פ"ה: "מי שהוא ת"ח לא יאכל מעומד ולא ילקלק באצבעותיו וכו'", הרי מבואר שממידת דרך ארץ אסור לאכול מעומד, ולא כמבואר במס' גיטין דהוא מתיש גופו של אדם, וגם ממס' דרך ארץ משמע דרק ת"ח צריך ליזהר בזה, ובגמ' משמע לכל אדם. ועוד, שבמס' גיטין ה"ה אכילה וגם שתייה, ובמס' דרך ארץ משמע רק אכילה

והנה בדיני הבדלה במוצ"ש (סי' רצ"ו סק"ד) מוסיף המג"א ואומר: ולא ישתה כוס הבדלה עד שישב [מט"מ מנהגים גמ'] עכ"ל המג"א. ומטה משה סי' תכ"ט (שיסודו מהנהגת האריז"ל) כותב "שלא ישתה עד שישב, משום דתלמידי חכמים לא יאכלו וישתו מעומד וכן נהגו לעשות" עכ"ל המט"מ. ובפרמ"ג (שם) ובמחצית השקל (שם) כתוב: "דגנאי לת"ח לאכול ולשתות מעומד", וכנראה שיסודו מדברי מסכת דרך ארץ (הנ"ל), וכבר כתבנו דשם מבואר רק הך שלא יאכל מעומד, ולא מוזכר כלום אודות שתייה מעומד. והעיר א' בקובץ אור ישראל דאולי היה להם הגירסא דלא יאכל או ישתה מעומד, או שסוברים דהיינו הך


כ' בפרי עץ חיים בשם האריז"ל, דאע"פ דאמר הקידוש מעומד, היה מדקדק קודם השתיה לישב, וכי הטעם דהאר"י הק' היה מדקדק לקיים כל דברי חז"ל, א"כ מאחר דנזכר דין זה בגמ', היה נזהר בזה, ובוודאי גם במים היה נזהר, וכן בכל מיני שתייה


והנה אדמו"ר הזקן בשולחנו (סי' רצ"ו הל' ט"ו) כתב וז"ל: ומ"מ אחר הבדלה יש לו לישב ולשתות הכוס, שאין לת"ח לאכול ולשתות בעמידה, והנה המחצית השקל (הנ"ל) פסק שראוי כל אחד לעשות עצמו ת"ח בדבר זה. ואפשר דמסכים עמו הרוקח ולכן לא חילק (סי' שכ"ט) בד"ה דרך ארץ: לא יאכל אדם מעומד ולא ישתה מעומד.

Quote:
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(though smorgasbords to remind me of "grazing" ...)
I have a funny feeling about this "grazing" thing ...
משמעות הענין הוא, שיותר מחמירם באכילה. שכמה שיטות הזכירו רק אכילה לבד אפילו שלא הזכירו ענין השתייה
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Unread 01-26-2007, 09:11 AM   #8
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After the whole pilpul (which I knew most of anyway, but thanks) - bottom line is that the AR mentions a TC, and the מחצית השקל is not a binding halocho (even assuming it is מוסכם). The raayo from Arizal is not relevant, כמובן.
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Unread 01-26-2007, 01:22 PM   #9
Smirnoff
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613 View Post
After the whole pilpul (which I knew most of anyway, but thanks) - bottom line is that the AR mentions a TC, and the מחצית השקל is not a binding halocho (even assuming it is מוסכם).
True.

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The raayo from Arizal is not relevant, כמובן.
The הנהגת האריז"ל was not meant to be proof. It was brought in a different context. If you didn't understand the point, try reading it again.
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Unread 01-26-2007, 02:01 PM   #10
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Thanks so much Smirnoff for the additional background!
So, in very short summary, the Alter Rebbe says in Shulchan Aruch that we should sit while drinking the cup for havdalah because talmidei chachomim shouldn't eat or drink while standing. Based on the other sources, the implied reason is because of derech eretz. Very much appreciaited!
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Unread 01-26-2007, 02:04 PM   #11
Torah613
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Correct, the point IIUC was the inyon לקיים כל דברי חז"ל.
Obviously that is not a relevant argument,
שהרי בד"כ יש הרבה ענינים כגון אלו המוזכרים בחז"ל שאין נוהגים כן (מאיזה סיבה שתהי'), וא"כ הרי' זה הנהגה מיוחדת של האריז"ל. וכידוע על עוד איזה גדולים שנהגו להקפיד על דברים כגון אלו, אבל פשוט שאין זה נוגע לשאלת השואל בתחילת האשכול.
is there another point I missed?
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Unread 01-26-2007, 02:15 PM   #12
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Are the Talmidei Chachomim you know noheig this way?

At a Kiddush in shul? (Both the wine and the mezonos.)
At a shmorg before the badeken?
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Unread 01-26-2007, 02:27 PM   #13
Torah613
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The TC I know that have a bit of class and/or self respect would not eat at any of the above venues standing up. [I, though not being in that catagory at all, try to follow that example, for the simple reason that I gave: I can't handle this "grazing" thing]. But can I say it is a halachik problem for the rank and file and those less sensitive souls out there? No.
[OTOH, does it not say somewhere that today we don't have a TC? So we can pick and choose what to do, I suppose... ].
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Unread 01-26-2007, 03:33 PM   #14
mordechai7215
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Reb Volf Greenglass, in Montrea, often quotes the above shu"a to repremand bochurim who are eating while standing, but chooses to leave out the part about being a TC . . .
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Unread 01-26-2007, 04:25 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by mordechai7215 View Post
chooses to leave out the part about being a TC . . .
Being a Mekubal and an Ish HaEmes?
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Unread 03-28-2007, 12:13 AM   #16
olensky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vayaaminu View Post
Based on the other sources, the implied reason is because of derech eretz.
In addition, and I'm not sure where I heard it or saw it, another reason has to do with the possibility / danger of choking.

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