Jewish Forum & Discussions - Chabad Talk  

Go Back   Jewish Forum & Discussions - Chabad Talk > Torah and Judaism > Halachah & Minhagim

Reply
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 2 votes, 5.00 average. Display Modes
Unread 01-05-2004, 04:06 PM   #1
Yankel Nosson
Senior Platinum Member
 
Yankel Nosson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,259
Coffee and Kashrus

Part of an article on coffee from the Star-K website. Do Lubavitcher Rabbonim pasken this way? I see frum Jews in Starbucks, but I can't remember ever seeing an identifiable Lubavitcher...

Quote:
COFFEE SHOPS & VENDING MACHINES
Coffee shops are sprouting up all over. Can you purchase a cup of coffee there? What about buying at a rest stop or in a non-kosher restaurant? Finally, what are the kashrus considerations when it comes to coffee vending machines?

There are a number of issues to deal with when it comes to buying a cup of coffee in a shop or other non-kosher establishment. The first issue to address is the coffee itself. Plain black coffee can typically be ordered without too much of a problem. The one proviso is to make sure to get it in a paper cup. (Incidentally, paper cups are a far better choice than styrofoam cups as you avoid the non-kosher zinc stearate present in most styrofoam cups. For more information on this subject, see the article about kosher plastics on our website at www.star-k.org.) This must be done to avoid using keilim, utensils, that might have been used for non-kosher or washed with non-kosher dishes. You should also use only plastic spoons as the metal spoons have the same problem as the china cups or mugs. Those who are careful to drink only cholov yisroel, dairy products produced with a Jew present at milking, will of course realize that the milk cannot be used. Creamers, both dairy and non-dairy, require kosher certification as they might contain non-kosher stabilizers, as well as dairy ingredients such as casein. Sugar is fine without a hechsher.

Another question to address is the status of all the coffees with European sounding names. Cappuccino, Café au Lait, and Café Latte all share frothed milk as an ingredient in one form or another. Again, this is a concern for those who are careful to drink only cholov yisroel. The other Italian inspired coffee, Espresso, which is the main ingredient of the aforementioned drinks, really refers to a method of brewing coffee. This method usually employs a pump-driven machine that forces hot water through very finely ground coffee at high pressure. This produces about an ounce of thick intense coffee known as a shot. If drunk alone without any additions it presents no kashrus concerns.

The last issue is whether you can walk in the door or not. This problem stems from the halacha of marris ayin, the appearance of wrongdoing. This din states that a Jew is prohibited from doing things that others might interpret as violations of halacha. What are the guidelines as far as coffee is concerned? Rabbi Moshe Heinemann, Rabbinic Administrator of the Star-K, is of the opinion that if the restaurant is known mainly for the traif, non-kosher, products it sells, McDonald's, for example, then going into such a place would constitute marris ayin. An establishment like a coffee shop or highway rest stop that sells many kosher and non-kosher items and is not known for a particular traif product would not be problematic.


from: http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-thirst-coffee.htm
__________________
Chassidim must study Chassidus--HaYom Yom 21Kislev
Yankel Nosson is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-06-2004, 08:25 AM   #2
Gevurah
Executive Diamond Member
 
Gevurah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 3,052
What does your Lubavitcher Rav say? Does not his opinion the only thing that should matter to you?

What is a Lubavitcher Rav? I am looking for a new Rav and If I choose one that is not, clearly that will hasten my becoming not.

I must know plenty who do but they are probably not identifiable as Lubavitch except by their Shabbas sirtug. Does that make them one?

Question on an additional issue not cited below. Toiveling the kelim to make and contain the coffee owned by a frei Jew? Are you not allowed to drink if they are not? I "thought" so and did not use the coffee pot at the factory then I saw some goy cleaning the pot with trefus and then I was glad and never thought about using it again...
Gevurah is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-06-2004, 09:40 AM   #3
Yankel Nosson
Senior Platinum Member
 
Yankel Nosson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,259
Quote:
Originally posted by Gevurah
What is a Lubavitcher Rav? I am looking for a new Rav and If I choose one that is not, clearly that will hasten my becoming not.
This is worth a thread of its own. Perhaps you'd like to open up to us? The forum is anonymous, after all.
__________________
Chassidim must study Chassidus--HaYom Yom 21Kislev
Yankel Nosson is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-06-2004, 10:43 AM   #4
mendelp
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 603
I find the p'sak of the star-k astonishing (then again litvishe kulos...). The tubes inside the machines are typicaly washed together in hot water, even if you will say that the soap is pogem it is only mutar bedieved. If it was a p'sak from the OU they would argue that the only issue is the milchige ingredients which are only chalav stam (and therefore not issur), but the star-k is officialy (think star-d) chalav yisroel and they should atleast mention that it might be an issue.
mendelp is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-06-2004, 10:49 AM   #5
Yankel Nosson
Senior Platinum Member
 
Yankel Nosson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,259
What are you referring to? How do they wash tubes inside the machines? Are you are referring to a coffee pot?
__________________
Chassidim must study Chassidus--HaYom Yom 21Kislev
Yankel Nosson is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-06-2004, 12:08 PM   #6
Maskil
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 752
Mendelp,

1) Did you read YN's post? They DO mention the Cholov Yisroel issue. Twice.

2) It is b'dieved. They made the coffee already. That's what b'dieved means.
__________________
A maskil is an oveid and an oveid is a maskil
Maskil is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-06-2004, 10:40 PM   #7
levi
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 169
how do you know what the glass jugs that contain the coffee are washed with?
levi is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-06-2004, 10:59 PM   #8
Maskil
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 752
I'm not in the business of defending Starbucks drinkers. I don't even like coffee. But the facts are:

1) No beverage at Starbucks is actually really treif b'dieved.

2) Jugs and urns etc. when washed, are washed with soap, rendering any other item pogum.

3) Any flavor ingredient, even if raui l'achila, is botul b'shishim etc.

4) Let alone the fact that we know that just about everyone holds that glass is not bolei'a.

If you've ever had a real shailo occur in your own kitchen, you know that this is how it works.

A chosid is nisht keit b'dieved yid, ober di emes is azoi, m'ikar hadin.
__________________
A maskil is an oveid and an oveid is a maskil

Last edited by Maskil; 01-07-2004 at 08:20 AM.
Maskil is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-06-2004, 11:06 PM   #9
levi
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 169
a triefe glass is no problem even if its contents are hot?
levi is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-07-2004, 08:19 AM   #10
Maskil
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 752
That's obviously what I meant. NOTHING is bolei'a with cold contents, or even kli sheini. (Except for kivush, but that's not the issue here.)
__________________
A maskil is an oveid and an oveid is a maskil
Maskil is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-07-2004, 09:19 AM   #11
stwill
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 516
Quote:
Originally posted by Maskil
even kli sheini
huh? then cups & plates never become treif, since they're not used on the fire ??
stwill is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-07-2004, 11:25 AM   #12
mendelp
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 603
There are tubes inside the coffee machines that at the end of the
day are washed together in HOT (more than yad soledes) water, the Soap is pogem only bedieved. If you consider the chalav akum as issur (which we do) then you have two bedieved's a) the soap (is it a real p'gam?) b) nosen ta'am lifgam is ossur l'chatchila. This is besides the flavorings in the coffee's which can be animal based etc. my comments about the star - k and cholov yisroel were b/c they seemed concerned with the milk added later and not with the milk in the coffee.
mendelp is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-07-2004, 11:28 AM   #13
Shmeryl
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 136
How many shluchim drink at Starbucks?
Shmeryl is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-07-2004, 11:36 AM   #14
mendelp
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 603
Quote:
Originally posted by Maskil
That's obviously what I meant. NOTHING is bolei'a with cold contents, or even kli sheini. (Except for kivush, but that's not the issue here.)
Correct me if I'm wrong, a kli sheini is not m'vashel but is maflit u'mavlia.
mendelp is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-07-2004, 11:40 AM   #15
Maskil
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 752
You stand corrected.

Do you know what b'dieved means?
__________________
A maskil is an oveid and an oveid is a maskil
Maskil is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-07-2004, 01:33 PM   #16
RebMoshe
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 966
Quote:
Originally posted by Maskil
I'm not in the business of defending Starbucks drinkers. I don't even like coffee. But the facts are:

1) No beverage at Starbucks is actually really treif b'dieved.

2) Jugs and urns etc. when washed, are washed with soap, rendering any other item pogum.

3) Any flavor ingredient, even if raui l'achila, is botul b'shishim etc.

4) Let alone the fact that we know that just about everyone holds that glass is not bolei'a.

1. I am not sure.
2. soap is not pogam
3. flavors are not butil at all, since you can still taste them.
4. Except for Pesach, that is the minhag as far as I know.
RebMoshe is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-07-2004, 01:41 PM   #17
Maskil
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 752
1. I am.
2. Yes it is.
3. Wait....
4. It's not the minhag l'chatchila I know. But b'dieved it is always treated as kosher and it is mitztareif to all the other reasons.
__________________
A maskil is an oveid and an oveid is a maskil
Maskil is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-07-2004, 01:52 PM   #18
RebMoshe
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 966
Quote:
Originally posted by Maskil
1. I am.
2. Yes it is.
3. Wait....
4. It's not the minhag l'chatchila I know. But b'dieved it is always treated as kosher and it is mitztareif to all the other reasons.
1. Never ate in Starbucks, so I woudl hav no idea.
2. So why not wash all non-kosher pots with soap and make them pogam and eliminate the need to kasher?? (Rhetorical, one can't)
3. Look it up. It's a meferash Rema.
4. I understood from the dayan in my community that it was not b'di'eved. But there may be different minhagim on that.
RebMoshe is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-07-2004, 02:02 PM   #19
Maskil
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 752
As a matter of fact, that is what some kashrus agencies sometimes do in case of emergency.

As a matter of fact, washing tarfus with a soap is always used as a mitigating factor l'kula when frantic housewives call their poskim after their husbands goofed up and washed a milchig item with a fleishig one etc.

Once again, as a non-Starbucks, non-coffee drinker, I want to point out that this is all b'dieved. Meaning, that Jews are NOT to do these things in their own homes or restaurants on purpose. Nor should it be done on their behalf specifically. (Here Mr Shwartz, I mixed that ounce of milk in your 61 ounce chiolent, just like I know you like it.)

But if a goy did it, on his own, for his large clientele of which Jews are only a fraction, the said coffee is kosher not cholov Yisroel when all is said and done.

P.S. 3 The plain coffee at Starbucks has no flavoring. It is not in the store's interest to have flavoring from one coffee mix into a pot of another kind of coffee. Customers would complain.
__________________
A maskil is an oveid and an oveid is a maskil
Maskil is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-07-2004, 02:07 PM   #20
RebMoshe
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 966
Quote:
Originally posted by Maskil

As a matter of fact, washing tarfus with a soap is always used as a mitigating factor l'kula when frantic housewives call their poskim after their husbands goofed up and washed a milchig item with a fleishig one etc.
?? It is pretty hard to wash a milchig and fleishig thing together and make a problem. I assume you are talkign about placing ben yomas in a pot of boiling water, which is not schiach.
RebMoshe is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-07-2004, 02:18 PM   #21
Gevurah
Executive Diamond Member
 
Gevurah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 3,052
Quote:
But if a goy did it, on his own
and if it was not a goy?
Gevurah is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-07-2004, 02:22 PM   #22
Maskil
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 752
So what's your problem with point #2?
__________________
A maskil is an oveid and an oveid is a maskil
Maskil is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-07-2004, 02:32 PM   #23
stamayid
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 683
Flavor ingredients are NOT botel if they can still be tasted. It's a machlokes rishonim and the Ramo is machmir.

Regarding being pogem, see Igros Moshe YD 3:13 regarding dishwashers in hotels. It is ma'asim bechol yom.
__________________
<b>Stam A Yid</b>
stamayid is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-07-2004, 09:23 PM   #24
Maskil
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 752
Flavor ingredients might not count as being treif if they are not edible before being added to the food or beverage.
__________________
A maskil is an oveid and an oveid is a maskil
Maskil is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-09-2004, 12:42 PM   #25
mendelp
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 603
Kashrus agencys are not pogem with soap they are pogem with stronger stuff e.g. pine oil etc. Bedieved means after the fact. does that mean that I can go and buy a bedived when they are making it for me?
mendelp is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:31 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2001 - 2016 ChabadTalk.com