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Unread 12-24-2001, 07:02 AM   #1
pretzelatar
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A Lubavitch Chazan in a Non-Lubavitch Shul

If a lubavitcher is chazzan in a non lubavitch shul, should he say veshomru etc?
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Unread 12-24-2001, 07:03 AM   #2
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I read in the Chabad Sefer HaMinhagim that a Chossid should not change Nusach, even when acting as SHA"TZ in a non-Nusach Ari minyan.

This might be the Chabad ideal. But the ideal of most Ashkenaz minyanim is that a Chazan follows the minhag hamakom.

I do not know of a real Nusach Ashkenaz minyan that would allow a Chabadnik who decided to daven Nusach Ari (for the amud) to daven for the amud ever again if he attempted to daven Nusach Ari. So all Lubavichers I have seen davening for the amud in an ashkenaz shul daven Ashkenaz, at least out loud. No one can stop them from saying what they want silently.
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Unread 12-24-2001, 07:04 AM   #3
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Pretzelatar,

In the case of Veshumru, you can just wait for everyone to say it, and when they're finished you begin the Kaddish. I've done this before in non-Lubavitch shuls and nobody seems to notice.

The real question is what to do about Shemoneh Esrei. I will address this below:

A LUBAVITCH CHAZAN DAVENING IN A NON-LUBAVITCH SHUL

When Davening at a non-Lubavitch Shul you have a number of options. Here’s a list in order of preference:

1) Best option: Daven your Nusach

2) Don’t Daven at the Amud at all

3) If you have no choice (there’s no one else to Daven, and the shul insists that you Daven their Nusach) then you should Daven their Nusach BOTH FOR THE SILENT AND LOUD SHEMONEH ESREI.

***

SOURCES:
In a letter dated 8 Teves 5715 the Rebbe writes (free translation of Igros Kodesh Chelek Yud p. 208):

“In response to your letter about the Nusachs, that sometimes you are forced to Daven for the Amud in a shul that is not Nusach Ari:

“Often, when it comes to such things, when you don’t make a big deal out of it, and you do just go and matter-of-factly do it with your Nusach you will be able to get by without people realizing or making a fuss.

“On the other hand, it’s not worth to cause Machlokes over this*, because whatever you gain will be lost (Yatza Secharo Bhefseido)

“[Note:] In Kol Bo on Aveilus p. 367 it brings down from the Atzei Chaim that you should Daven the Nusach of the congregation. Ibid he quotes the Yeitzev Leiv that he should Daven and change (temporarily) to their Nusach IF THERE IS NO OTHER CHAZAN. – Hence, if there is another Chazan, then tzorich iyun if it is better to just say Kaddish instead of Davening for the Amud. [I.e., in a case where you want to Daven because you are a Chiyuv].

"In Kitzur Shulchan Aruch with [Rabbi] Broin’s commentary (Shearim Hamezuyanim Bahalachah) Vol. 1 p. 112 he quotes from Shu”t Meishiv Davar (of the Netziv) Ch. 17 that the silent Shemoneh Esrei should be Davened in your regular Nusach, and the Chazaras Hashatz should be the same as the congregation. But tzorich iyun gadol because the whole idea of the silent Shemone Esrei is to PREPARE for the loud one , and if you follow his psak, not only does it not help you prepare, to the contrary… See Shu”t Nezer Hakodesh Vol. 2 Orach Chaim Ch. 12.” [End]

***

By the way, the Igros Moshe Vol. 2 Ch. 29 also rules that both the quiet and loud Shemone Esrei must be of the identical Nusach.

***

In a letter dated 27 Shevat 5717 the Rebbe writes (free translation):

“In response to your letter in which you write about the person who davens Nusach Ari Davened for the Amud in a Nusach Ashkenaz Shul, and you write that the congregation object to this, and you add that this [objection] was because doing so is contrary to the Lav of “Lo Sisgodedu”…

“The Tzemach Tzedek has already ruled in Orach Chaim 236 that doing so is actually not Halachically problematic. In fact, he cites Gedolei Yisroel who have davened for the Amud with their Nusach even though the congregation used another Nusach.

“Rabbi Nasan Adler (The Rebbe of the Chassam Sofer), and the Baal Hafla’ah davened for the Amud in Nusach Sefard, while his Minyan Davened Nusach Ashkenaz. (Shu”t Chassam Sofer Orach Chaim 15)

“On the other hand, the main thing is to be careful not to create conflicts. Machlokes is something forbidden min Hatorah according to all opinions. “Great is peace, that the entire Torah was given to make peace in the world”. (-Quoted by the Rambam end of Hilchos Chanukah)”
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Unread 02-17-2002, 03:24 AM   #4
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Reb Mendel Volosov, a Chossid of the Rebbe Rashab, once asked the Rebbe Rashab if he should assume the position of Chazan in a particular town? The Rebbe Rashab agreed on 3 conditions:
1) He must always immerse in a Mikveh before going up.
2) He must always cover his head with his Tallis while praying.
3) He must never repeat the words of the Prayer.

I take this to mean, that certain Minhagim cannot be compromised just because you are in a different Shul. One should and must consult a Rav before undertaking such a position.
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Unread 02-20-2002, 11:43 PM   #5
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Post Chabad Chazan saying Veshumru

As far as a chabad chazan saying Veshumru: according to the alter Rebbe Veshumru in davening is a hefsek and should NOT be said under any circumstances. Everything else is not Meakev and may be said by a mispalel nusach arizal. (except for Veyatzmach Purkunei, which should be said Lehotzie Medatom etc. )
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Unread 05-30-2002, 01:34 AM   #6
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Re: Chabad Chazan saying Veshumru

Quote:
Originally posted by HershelBP
As far as a chabad chazan saying Veshumru: according to the alter Rebbe Veshumru in davening is a hefsek and should NOT be said under any circumstances. Everything else is not Meakev and may be said by a mispalel nusach arizal. (except for Veyatzmach Purkunei, which should be said Lehotzie Medatom etc. )
Who said that if the shul is makpid you r allowed to say veyatsmach poorkoneh??(don't make up stuff, the rebbe clearly staTES that any shinui which will cause machlokes is bad......just think how angry lubabs would be if someone davened their own nusach in a lubab shul?!)
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Unread 05-30-2002, 01:36 AM   #7
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BH

Umm, Highly interesting. I've been to many Chabad Houses where people have omitted or added based on their own Nuschaos. I've never met a Shliach (so far) who has actually had a problem with this Am I missing something?

Don't try and answer with hypothetical, false accusations.
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Unread 05-03-2003, 09:20 PM   #8
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Quote:
according to the alter Rebbe Veshumru in davening is a hefsek
Isn't there a story that the Berditchever convinced the AR to put it in the siddur by saying that the mlochim really danced when the Yidden said Veshomru? So the AR replied that you don't have to dance at every wedding! (But then he put it in with the comment that it's a hefsek, but those who do it have al ma lismoch.)
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Unread 05-03-2003, 10:20 PM   #9
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so if they honor you friday nite...should you put the tallis on or try to not?

did they deal with this point in haaros ubiurim? #?
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Unread 05-03-2003, 10:49 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kapote
so if they honor you friday nite...should you put the tallis on or try to not?
I heard in a shiur by R. Shusterman of N. Beverly Hills: the Rebbe wrote a letter on this matter to a shul in Boston, and said that while on some things it is appropriate not to make a big deal for the sake of peace, in this matter (of wearing a tallis at night) it should absolutely not be done because the Zohar Hakadosh (or is it the Arizal?) says it is a sakana.
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Unread 05-04-2003, 12:10 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by Yankel Nosson

I heard in a shiur by R. Shusterman of N. Beverly Hills: the Rebbe wrote a letter on this matter to a shul in Boston, and said that while on some things it is appropriate not to make a big deal for the sake of peace, in this matter (of wearing a tallis at night) it should absolutely not be done because the Zohar Hakadosh (or is it the Arizal?) says it is a sakana.
I'm not sure what you mean by the Sakonoh issue. There is a general rule in the talmud: 'keivan dedoshu boh rabbim shomer pesoyim hashem' if many people do a certain thing on an ongoing basis ,even though there may be danger involved, hashem saves them. Since many shuls have the minhag of a tallis at night and I've yet to hear about something happening to that person, it would be deduced that this is a case of 'shomer pesoyim, no?
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Unread 05-04-2003, 01:07 AM   #12
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Pretzel, Rabbi shusteman was quoting the Rebbe on that one.
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Unread 05-04-2003, 06:56 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by pretzel999
Since many shuls have the minhag of a tallis at night and I've yet to hear about something happening to that person...
Don't you think the sakana referred to here is a sakana in ruchniyus?
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Unread 05-04-2003, 02:15 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Yankel Nosson

I heard in a shiur by R. Shusterman of N. Beverly Hills: the Rebbe wrote a letter on this matter
See Igros v 5 p 91/LS v 13 p 200.
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Unread 05-04-2003, 02:31 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Yankel Nosson

Don't you think the sakana referred to here is a sakana in ruchniyus?
I need clarification on this issue, please.
Sakanah: What is meant by this? T here is a machlokess Rishonim if a garment worn by day usually (k**** yom) is chayav in tzizis (tzizis is only 'noheig' in day time, however a 'day garment' is the machlokess, even at night. I think that is why we wear tzizis at night to, though I may be wrong. Also on yom kippur at night we wear a tallis, though there we are like angels, may be different)
So what is the danger, if al pi halachah you are doing a mitzvah?
(true, there is a problem , with a beracha....)
Can someone add info?
I would imagine that the rule of 'shomer pesoyim' applies to any type of danger (I don't know)

Last edited by pretzel999; 05-04-2003 at 02:36 PM.
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Unread 05-04-2003, 05:12 PM   #16
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Look up the sources, then question!
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Unread 05-05-2003, 09:16 AM   #17
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As a non-Lubavitcher, I can only say that I and most of my friends are EXTREMELY offended when a Lubavitcher will not daven (from the omud) in the nusach of the shul. From my perspective, he is over on lo sisgodedu and should just daven somewhere else. If he can't respect the shul's minhogim then don't expect the shul members to respect him.

I know that in my shul if you won't daven according to the shul's minhogim then you are not allowed at the omud, even if you have a chiyuv. The same goes for many shtiebels where they have extra gartels for the Litvaks who want to daven from the omud. For some reason, we can all get along and respect each other's minhogim.
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Unread 05-05-2003, 09:22 AM   #18
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I agree - a L should not go to the amud in such situations, if he doesn't want to davven the shuls nussach - even if he is a "chiyuv".
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