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Unread 07-31-2006, 09:55 PM   #1
TakehBored
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Being motzi others with Kidush/Havdala

If one is 'yoitzei' his chiyuv of Kidush min haTorah with the Kidush he says in davening, and his kidush al hayayin is only miderabonon, how can he be motzi his wife with kidush if she is chayov min hatoira?

same question applies to havdala according to the shita that women are chayov in havdala min hatoira. (it would only apply if she didn't say boruch hamavdil).
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Unread 07-31-2006, 11:33 PM   #2
Torah613
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ראה הגהות רע"א על מ"א סי' רעא סק"ב. וכבר דשו בה רבים.

Last edited by Torah613; 08-01-2006 at 08:44 AM.
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Unread 08-01-2006, 09:31 AM   #3
Yankel Nosson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TakehBored View Post
If one is 'yoitzei' his chiyuv of Kidush min haTorah with the Kidush he says in davening, and his kidush al hayayin is only miderabonon, how can he be motzi his wife with kidush if she is chayov min hatoira?
This is solved via the Chabad nusach of licht bentshen "lhadlik ner shel Shabbos kodesh"--the addition of the word "kodesh" after the brocha makes her yotzeh. (source: R' Shusterman)
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Unread 08-01-2006, 10:08 AM   #4
Gevurah
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how?
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Unread 08-01-2006, 11:26 AM   #5
Torah613
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I second the question - though I will assume that he means to answer the difficulty achronim have with the abovementioned R' Akiva Eiger, concerning how saying "Gut Shabbos" can be considered "kiddush", though to me it seems a bit of a stretch that the word "kodesh" solves the problem...
Anyway, the simple answer to the original question is - that they are yotze because of "arvus" which works even if you were yotze already min hatorah (not like the assumption of the NB in דגול מרבבא that there is no arvus for noshim see AR's SA 197:6).

Last edited by Torah613; 08-02-2006 at 09:38 AM.
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Unread 08-02-2006, 07:22 AM   #6
Gevurah
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So YN what is your cyberravs' reason?
I leanred all about T613's comments ...
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Unread 10-29-2006, 01:19 AM   #7
chossidnistar
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since Kiddush is Min HaTorah, and Yain is deRab, and for the women (who did not davened Mahariv,)the Kiddush is Min HaTorah, even acoording to BH ,women should say first Mekadesh HaShabbos and then Bore Pri Hagafen,sH T Imrei Yosher says taht women saying Good Shabbos or a little tefilah mentioning Shabbos after Hadlakas Habeiros, hey r Yotzin Min Hatorah
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Unread 10-29-2006, 09:05 AM   #8
Torah613
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What you bring from the אמרי יושר, is in the רע"א I referenced. The rest I don't understand at all.
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Unread 10-29-2006, 07:37 PM   #9
chossidnistar
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Kiddush for Shabbos, seder of Brocho is
BH Yain and after Yom (Yain causes kedushah o be said
BS Yom and after Yainm
PY :How Yain that is DERab, can cause Kiddush to be said that in Mi n HaTorah?Men r Yotzi Kiddush Min Hatorah in Davenen, that is why Yain that iS deRab can cause a Kedushah de Rab sheteamer
Nashim: that did not davenen, since that Kidddush is Min HaTorah, even BH would agree that they should say in their Kiddush "Yom and after wine " like BS ,b/c Wine is MiDeRab, and Kiddush MinHaTorah
Iy ,they yotze with the Good Shabbos, etc, otherwisw they should say like BS : Yom and after Wine
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Unread 10-29-2006, 08:41 PM   #10
Torah613
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nistar - can you please, please, endeavor to write in clear legible English?
Bchol ofen, if I understand what you are trying to say, I believe you are wrong.
The brocho on wine proceeds the brocho of kiddush, regardless if you were yotze the kiddush min hatorah in davvening or not. I do not believe this chiddush of yours says anywhere, if yes - where? (ולפלפולא, one can bring a proof against it from the case where one makes kiddush before davvening, דלא אשתמיט בשום מקום that he should reverse the seder).
You also did not yet supply the reference to אמרי יושר, to see whether he adds anything on רעק"א.
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Unread 10-29-2006, 08:59 PM   #11
chossidnistar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613 View Post
Bchol ofen, if I understand what you are trying to say, I believe you are wrong.
The brocho on wine proceeds the brocho of kiddush, regardless if you were yotze the kiddush min hatorah in davvening or not. I do not believe this chiddush of yours says anywhere, if yes - where? .
Yeshuas Yaakov SH Har Horach Chaim siman 271
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Unread 10-29-2006, 09:22 PM   #12
Torah613
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Thank you, I stand corrected (we learn new things every day). You could have also brought the צל"ח ברכות נא where he says the same thing ע"ש, but see the ספר הקובץ על הרמב"ם פכ"ט משבת where he argues on the צל"ח. And by me it is poshut that להלכה we would not paskin like that, based on the stima of the Alter Rebbe, in addition to the proof I brought before in my earlier post, and other reasons.
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Unread 03-14-2011, 07:21 PM   #13
shoyn
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i believe YN's reason presented above is mentioned by ketzos hashulchan
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