Pas Yisroel

[Mahus]

Originally Posted by Torah613

Obviously, there are those that hold of R' Moshe's ruling, and therefore their keeping of literal CV is a hiddur - but then one would not kasher keilim after using "milk of companies", as one would not kasher for a hiddur.

When Reb Moshe is talking about keeping what you call "real" chalav yisroel, he's talking about chalav yisroel where they are kashering between cholov stam and chalav yisroel.

Don't minimize the issue of CY/CA (and distort the IM) to make your point.

That's exactly what I'm asking from you.

[Mahus]

Originally Posted by Torah613

[And no, I did not minimize pas palter (as I went out of my way to point out), I just pointed out that they are different...].

And, oh yeah, you totally did. You repeatedly mentioned that, in contrast to milk, there is room for kulos by pas palter, which is false and corrupt.

[LION]

I have no comment other than that who ever is interested should check the sources and see for themselves...

[Torah613]

Ah, that nasty word again..."sources"....

[Torah613]

Originally Posted by Mahus

And, oh yeah, you totally did. You repeatedly mentioned that, in contrast to milk, there is room for kulos by pas palter, which is false and corrupt.

See AR's SA 168:6.

[Chossid]

Lehoir, there's a famous Yechidus with R' Don Yoel Levy, of OK, where he asked the Rebbe whether he can put a Hechsher on Milchik products that are Cholov Stam(according to the Teshuva of R' Moshe), and the Rebbe answered him that the Heter is a Heter and it's better than Real Cholov Okum[kemuvon that was not for us Lubavitchers, but for those who otherwise would have eaten real CA]. This is how I heard it from a Lubavitcher OK Mashgiach at a Yarchei Kalloh according to my memory, please correct me if I was wrong on specific details.

[Yankel Nosson]

I suppose that flour tortillas would have to be pas yisroel since they are baked


What about corn tortillas? No wheat flour, no problem--correct?

[hishtatchus]

Yes, there is a problem... they have a VERY strong taste. You can have mine if you want. (No pas prob, of course)

[Groisah Tzaddik]

Originally Posted by Yankel Nosson

I suppose that flour tortillas would have to be pas yisroel since they are baked

What if you cook them (fry them or steam them)? IS it still PasAkum? After all I"m Yisroel

[Torah613]

I recently had occasion to reread this thread (don't ask me why...). Now is not the time to revisit old issues (tough it is possible that some of what I wrote above has to be revisited a bit).

But I see one thing which is apparantly clearly an error (which is why I feel the need to correct it, as it is a halachik issue): I am pretty sure, that breakfast cereals (for the most part, if not all of them), is a bishul akum issue, not a pas issue (as mentioned many times above by various posters), as they are neither bread not pas habo bekisnin (פת הבא בכסנין). Therefore, the main issue would be oleh al shulchan mlochim and other details/heterim that pertain to bishul.

[ASHREI]

A bakery in my neighborhood is Kashrut.Org certified and they say that they are Pas, however, throughout the bakery there are pictures of Xmas man and the symbols associated with Xmas man. What would be the considered opinion or ruling for such a bakery?

[Kookoo Kabalist]

You'd have to take this up with the kashrus agency that certifies them...

[Torah613]

I don't see the problem.

[ChilinInCali]

Re: Breakfast cereals.

They obviously go under the geder of bishul and not pas, as one of the conditions for pas is 'toiar lechem' shach YD 112:18. (to the best of my knowledge and research on this topic there is no choilek on this point).

and because they are not oileh al shulchan melochim* they probably do not need to be bishul yisroel according to those who go bosar tzurah, for those who go bosar min, corn based cereals and oat based cereals seem to be fine, according to most rabbonim, for wheat based cereals yesh lachkoir if bran is different.

*accepted modern application of this term seems to be; would it be served at a continental breakfast?

[Mahus]

Originally Posted by Torah613

I recently had occasion to reread this thread (don't ask me why...). Now is not the time to revisit old issues (tough it is possible that some of what I wrote above has to be revisited a bit).

But I see one thing which is apparantly clearly an error (which is why I feel the need to correct it, as it is a halachik issue): I am pretty sure, that breakfast cereals (for the most part, if not all of them), is a bishul akum issue, not a pas issue (as mentioned many times above by various posters), as they are neither bread not pas habo bekisnin (פת הבא בכסנין). Therefore, the main issue would be oleh al shulchan mlochim and other details/heterim that pertain to bishul.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but bishul vs. pas is a matter of the food and the form of preparation: e.g. Chicken, no matter how it is made, is in the category of bishul while the 5 grains if cooked are bishul (for matters of bishul yisroel) and if baked in heat are pas (for matters of pas yisroel). So wouldn't each cereal be a different story depending on the material it is made from and how it is prepared (is it cooked and then dried or is it baked - or is it pressure baked at a temperature lower than yad soledes and not halachically afiya or bishul)?

[Mahus]

Originally Posted by ASHREI

A bakery in my neighborhood is Kashrut.Org certified and they say that they are Pas, however, throughout the bakery there are pictures of Xmas man and the symbols associated with Xmas man. What would be the considered opinion or ruling for such a bakery?

I have seen both Xmas cookies and Xmas chocolates in pas yisroel and cholov yisroel respectively. I assume the hechsher implies a halachic endorsement. But I'm wondering: What is an "Xmas man" and is it in any way more Xistian than a gingerbread man?

[Mahus]

Originally Posted by ChilinInCali

Re: Breakfast cereals.

They obviously go under the geder of bishul and not pas, as one of the conditions for pas is 'toiar lechem' shach YD 112:18. (to the best of my knowledge and research on this topic there is no choilek on this point).

and because they are not oileh al shulchan melochim* they probably do not need to be bishul yisroel according to those who go bosar tzurah, for those who go bosar min, corn based cereals and oat based cereals seem to be fine, according to most rabbonim, for wheat based cereals yesh lachkoir if bran is different.

*accepted modern application of this term seems to be; would it be served at a continental breakfast?

[Oats, like wheat, are part of the five grains that make bread and mezonos i.e. pas - if baked - and bishul if cooked. Am I mistaken?]

I was under the strict impression that oleh al shulchan melochim is in regard to the food item not the way it is prepared. Can you cite a source to the contrary? (Is this what you mean by bosar tzurah?) This information would be very useful.

[Torah613]

Originally Posted by Mahus

Correct me if I'm wrong, but bishul vs. pas is a matter of the food and the form of preparation: e.g. Chicken, no matter how it is made, is in the category of bishul while the 5 grains if cooked are bishul (for matters of bishul yisroel) and if baked in heat are pas (for matters of pas yisroel). So wouldn't each cereal be a different story depending on the material it is made from and how it is prepared (is it cooked and then dried or is it baked - or is it pressure baked at a temperature lower than yad soledes and not halachically afiya or bishul)?

If it is not pas concerning ברכת הנהנין - or a pas that would be pas with קביעת סעודה, than it is not pas concerning these halochos. Nothing to do with baked or cooked. That is clear in the halochos of pas akum seee YD 112:6 and the nosei keilim there.

Originally Posted by Mahus

[Oats, like wheat, are part of the five grains that make bread and mezonos i.e. pas - if baked - and bishul if cooked. Am I mistaken?]

Would depend on the type of dough, and other issues. Just because the brocho is mezonos doesn't make it pas, even if baked.

Actually, there are cases when actual bread would also be treated like bishul (without the leniencies of bishul), as explained in poskim etc.

[Torah613]

Originally Posted by Mahus

I was under the strict impression that oleh al shulchan melochim is in regard to the food item not the way it is prepared. Can you cite a source to the contrary? (Is this what you mean by bosar tzurah?) This information would be very useful.

"Strict impression"? I would think that the pashtus would be the opposite, though there are opinions either way. For sources, any recent sefer on these issues will bring all the (earlier) sources. VAKML.

[Mahus]

Thanks!