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Unread 02-19-2005, 10:55 PM   #26
BaisHamikdashBa
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Listen, I've personally done a lot of hashgocho, including the OK, and I know for a fact that not all Post is pas yisroel. I told you to check your source but all you do is restate your misinformation.
I didnt check it out with rabbi hanoka but some else just told me that r' bluminkrantz said the same thing! And i spoke to a mashgiach from the Chk and he said its not all but most.

And about the toffuti cutie... It used to be not pas yisroel then they did change - But im not sure of the status now.
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Unread 02-19-2005, 11:10 PM   #27
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If we are talking about the same letter, where R' Moshe mentions how al pi kabolo keeping chalav yisroel is conducive to yir'as shomayim, and that everyone should strive to keep chalav yisroel even if it costs more, and this will even broaden the market for chalav yisroel, which will in turn lower the cover-fee of chalav yisroel, which will be more prevelant etc.

Then the point is that he draws a clear distinction between cholov stam, which is mutor (in contrast to chalav akum), and chalav yisroel, which is preferable. I also heard from R' Leibel Schapiro in Miami, who heard first hand from someone who was in R' Moshe's home at the time that he consumed cholov stam that his daughter had purchased for him and placed in the fridge, and when he found out he induced vomiting, even though cholov stam is mutor mei'ikkar ha-din.

He clearly did not hold that milk-from-countries-that-prohibit-and-enforce-the-prohibition-of adding-any-other-milk-other-than-cow's-milk-to-what-is-sold-as-cow's-milk is chalav yisroel, he clearly writes that it is permitted (and that gedolei yisroel were using it before he ever wrote his first teshuvo on the matter), but that chalav yisroel, which is not the same as cholov stam, is preferable for a number of reasons.
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Unread 02-19-2005, 11:15 PM   #28
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aha two snags at work... (LION and Torah613)
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Unread 02-19-2005, 11:18 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaisHamikdashBa
I didnt check it out with rabbi hanoka but some else just told me that r' bluminkrantz said the same thing! And i spoke to a mashgiach from the Chk and he said its not all...
And the truth begins to trickle out...

Quote:
And about the toffuti cutie... im not sure of the status now.
Thank you for this useful insight.
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Unread 02-19-2005, 11:25 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by 77D
aha two snags at work... (LION and Torah613)
Care to elaborate and/or reveal to us the depth contained in this sagacious comment?
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Unread 02-19-2005, 11:29 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Torah613
Care to elaborate and/or reveal to us the depth contained in this sagacious comment?
Nope. Theres nothing more then first thought.
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Unread 02-19-2005, 11:35 PM   #32
Torah613
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Originally Posted by Mahus
If we are talking about the same letter, where R' Moshe mentions how al pi kabolo keeping chalav yisroel is conducive to yir'as shomayim, and that everyone should strive to keep chalav yisroel even if it costs more, and this will even broaden the market for chalav yisroel, which will in turn lower the cover-fee of chalav yisroel, which will be more prevelant etc.

Then the point is that he draws a clear distinction between cholov stam, which is mutor (in contrast to chalav akum), and chalav yisroel, which is preferable. I also heard from R' Leibel Schapiro in Miami, who heard first hand from someone who was in R' Moshe's home at the time that he consumed cholov stam that his daughter had purchased for him and placed in the fridge, and when he found out he induced vomiting, even though cholov stam is mutor mei'ikkar ha-din.

He clearly did not hold that milk-from-countries-that-prohibit-and-enforce-the-prohibition-of adding-any-other-milk-other-than-cow's-milk-to-what-is-sold-as-cow's-milk is chalav yisroel, he clearly writes that it is permitted (and that gedolei yisroel were using it before he ever wrote his first teshuvo on the matter), but that chalav yisroel, which is not the same as cholov stam, is preferable for a number of reasons.
You cited the last volume of IM, in that volume he says nothing about "al pi kabolo" etc., I highly doubt he says that anywhere else either, though if you provide a precise quote (or reference) I will stand corrected (on this particular point).
In any case, learn his tshuvos on this subject (again?), as you have no idea what you are talking about concerning his opinion. The story you mention proves nothing.

Last edited by Torah613; 02-19-2005 at 11:58 PM.
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Unread 02-19-2005, 11:44 PM   #33
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Wow! Your good! When i said check it out i was refering to your comment were you said i should double check - so i said i didnt double check it with Rabbi Hanoka but i did hear it from rabbi blumenkrantz. (not directly.)

Rabbi hanoka said this when he gave a shiur to the kollel guys. Any one in kollel?
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Unread 02-19-2005, 11:59 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by 77D
Nope. Theres nothing more then first thought.
Then why make meaningless statements?
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Unread 02-20-2005, 12:05 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Torah613
You cited the last volume of IM, in that volume he says nothing about "al pi kabolo" etc.,
Okay, if he mentions buying chalav yisroel to drive down the cover price (and whatever other reasons he mentioned there) then that's the letter I'm talking about. If not, then you're not looking at his last published letter on the subject. From there it is clear that chalav yisroel has an advantage over cholov stam, even though cholov stam is mutor (unlike chalav akum, which is osur), and they are clearly not the same thing.

Keeping chalav yisroel over cholov stam is a hiddur, while keeping pas yisroel over pas palter (in a community where pas yisroel is kept) is a chiyuv with no room for kulos (and the single exception is an exception, not a kulo).
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Unread 02-20-2005, 12:11 AM   #36
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Mahus,

please cite page number.
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Unread 02-20-2005, 12:18 AM   #37
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Repeating the same thing over and over doesn't change the facts. I know the letter you think you are talking about (about Toronto), he doesn't go into his reasoning there at all, therefore to be medayik anything from there is silly. In addition, of course they are not the same thing: One has a yid seeing the milking in actuality, the other is CY based on a lomdus etc., therefore R' Moshe himself admits that it is better to have "real" CY (for reasons that he gives in various tshuvos, as footnoted in the aforementioned tshuvo in YD v4), even though he mantains that lehalocho the other is "also" CY.
For those that do not accept R' Moshe's reasoning (and there are many that do not), CY is no hiddur, rather ikkur hadin (like R' Moshe himself points out in his tshuvos).

Last edited by Torah613; 02-20-2005 at 12:33 AM.
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Unread 02-20-2005, 12:20 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by LION
Mahus,

please cite page number.
I don't have access to it now. If someone has it on disk, they can do a simple search for chalav yisroel, and they will find the letter where R' Moshe advocates keeping chalav yisroel, the one where he mentions the market price issue. Whether I cite you the page number or not is irrelevant, as the letter does exist, so it is futile to make presumptive and foolish statements that contradict it. It does not become "true" when you see it, it is true because it is there. This isn't a case of Schroedinger's cat...
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Unread 02-20-2005, 12:22 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Mahus
I don't have access to it now.
I thought so...
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Unread 02-20-2005, 12:30 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahus
I don't have access to it now. If someone has it on disk, they can do a simple search for chalav yisroel, and they will find the letter where R' Moshe advocates keeping chalav yisroel, the one where he mentions the market price issue. Whether I cite you the page number or not is irrelevant, as the letter does exist, so it is futile to make presumptive and foolish statements that contradict it. It does not become "true" when you see it, it is true because it is there. This isn't a case of Schroedinger's cat...
I have here a tesuva in chelek 8 that mentions the prices opened in front of me...[do you honestly think I commented without seeing the iggro moshe!?] and yes the page number is relevant being that it seems we are not talking about the same tesuva...mine says basically what Torah613 say....
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Unread 02-20-2005, 12:35 AM   #41
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Surprise! What did you think? That I quote things without knowing what I am quoting?!
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Unread 02-20-2005, 12:40 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LION
I have here a tesuva in chelek 8 that mentions the prices opened in front of me...[do you honestly think I commented without seeing the iggro moshe!?] and yes the page number is relevant being that it seems we are not talking about the same tesuva...mine says basically what Torah613 say....
Ah, good. Then that's the one. There you see he distinguishes between cholov stam, which is mutor, and cholov yisroel, which is preferable. Unlike chalav akum, which we all agree is ossur. Point being that keeping cholov yisroel over chalav stam is a hiddur, while pas palter (where pas yisroel is kept) is completely ossur with no room for kulos.
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Unread 02-20-2005, 12:43 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Torah613
Surprise! What did you think? That I quote things without knowing what I am quoting?!
You think I just checked\saw the tesuva now!? it is just that if someone is arguing so vehemently you have to give them the benefit of the doubt, after all with memory like mine you never now...and surprise...
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Unread 02-20-2005, 12:45 AM   #44
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Ah, good. Then that's the one. There you see he distinguishes between cholov stam, which is mutor, and cholov yisroel, which is preferable. Unlike chalav akum, which we all agree is ossur. Point being that keeping cholov yisroel over chalav stam is a hiddur, while pas palter (where pas yisroel is kept) is completely ossur with no room for kulos.
No I do not see...he says what has been said before.
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Unread 02-20-2005, 12:47 AM   #45
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A kop ken men nisht arufshtelen.
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Unread 02-20-2005, 12:53 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Mahus
A kop ken men nisht arufshtelen.
There is no point in discussing this until you get to an iggros moshe...
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Unread 02-20-2005, 07:18 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Torah613
R' Moshe himself admits that it is better to have "real" CY (for reasons that he gives in various tshuvos, as footnoted in the aforementioned tshuvo in YD v4), even though he mantains that lehalocho the other is "also" CY.
For those that do not accept R' Moshe's reasoning (and there are many that do not), CY is no hiddur, rather ikkur hadin (like R' Moshe himself points out in his tshuvos).
No. In this letter he calls milk that is not cholov stam "chalav yisroel," clearly contrasting the fact that the other milk is not chalav yisroel. That is something you made up completely.

And who disagrees with R' Moshe? Those that "keep chalav yisroel" are simply adhering to what he writes in the letter, that it's better to keep chalav yisroel. And I've seen many different teshuvos on this and they all give reasons for keeping chalav yisroel (like what it says in kabolo, etc.), but they do not dispute that cholov stam is not prohibited as the chalav akum of the Shulchon Oruch.

End of the story, keeping davka chalav yisroel like R' Moshe advocates is a hiddur, while pas palter (in our community) is absolutely osur with no room for leniency.

Last edited by Mahus; 02-20-2005 at 08:28 AM.
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Unread 02-20-2005, 09:26 AM   #48
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Mahus -
I will not keep on going in circles, as your agenda is clear and blatant; therefore why get confused with facts?
I will make 2 points, then I am done with this issue (until you start being honest):
1) Until you learn through the tshuvos in IM where he gives his reasoning at length, any understanding you try to derive from this particular tshuva is an understanding that is just there to further your agenda. If you would bother to look at the tshuva you reference inside fully, you would see that the editors were kind enough to cross reference this tshuva with the other tshuvos where he deals with the issue at length, with a brief synopsis of his opinion, making it easy for those who really want to know to know what the IM really holds (even if they have difficulty going through the tshuvos themselves...). In this tshuva however, he doesn't deal with the halachik issues and reasoning at all, rather it is more a question of "policy" (which is probably why he didn't print it in the earlier volumes). Therefore all the dikdukim of hevel you will make to derive and understand the shito of the IM from a letter where he doesn't explain and elaborate his shita - is misleading and wrong - but rather to further an agenda for which (I suppose) everything and anything goes.
2) Without getting into what the standards of our community is regarding pas palter - based on past posts of yours (see:http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/sear...searchid=39698) (did they all survive?), I assume your agenda is clear: You want to point out what in your eyes is hypocrisy, therefore your mantra like repetition of "CY being a hiddur", and pas palter being an absolute issur etc etc. Why you want to do this I have no idea, but my opinion is the exact opposite: CA is a severe issur according to everyone, including RM, there is no leniency in the actual issur of CA, the question is the definition of CA and CY, according to the psak of RM in IM those who do not follow the definition of RM would have to kasher their keilim if they used "milk of the companies".
Even the most severe definition of pas palter would not - according to my recollection - demand kashering the keilim. In addition to there being many ways to be lenient in pas palter, therefore, I assume there are answers to your questions that a real Rov can resolve. But even accepting the worst case scenario, it is still not comparable to CA. [To make clear: This is not meant to justify any kulos on pas palter not permitted by a real Rov!].
IOW: The zehiros in pas palter, relative to cholov akum/cholov stam/cholov hacompanies (in RM's language), is a hiddur, while not drinking the milk is ikkur hadin (since we don't accept RM's ruling). Uposhut.
Therefore, if you want to keep distorting halochos and tshuvos to further your agenda, fine, I am just letting everyone else out there know that you are a fraud...

Last edited by Torah613; 02-20-2005 at 10:03 AM.
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Unread 02-20-2005, 12:40 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613
CA is a severe issur according to everyone, including RM, there is no leniency in the actual issur of CA
That has never been debated, and you iunclude it only to obfuscate the issue and make it seem as though I deny that fact. I do not deny it.

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Even the most severe definition of pas palter would not - according to my recollection - demand kashering the keilim.
Whether the keilim need to be kashered (which they don't by pas palter to keep pas yisroel, and they do by cholov stam to keep chalav yisroel) does not speak one iota towards the possibility of leniency.

Quote:
In addition to there being many ways to be lenient in pas palter,
That is pure fiction that you have fabricated. There is no place given in Shulchon Oruch for leniency even when pas yisroel is not available.

Quote:
IOW: The zehiros in pas palter, relative to cholov akum/cholov stam/cholov hacompanies (in RM's language), is a hiddur,
Your fabrication, which is completely refuted by the clear halocho in Shulchan Oruch...

Quote:
while not drinking the milk is ikkur hadin (since we don't accept RM's ruling). Uposhut.
Keeping chalav yisroel does not mean the rejection of R' Moshe's ruling, as he makes quite clear in the letter you just cited.

What is your agenda exactly if not to reverse the severety of pas palter vs. chalav stam and be matir what is clearly forbidden in Shulchon Oruch? Megaleh ponim batoro shelo kehalocho, u'poshut!
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Unread 02-20-2005, 03:03 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahus
Keeping chalav yisroel does not mean the rejection of R' Moshe's ruling, as he makes quite clear in the letter you just cited.
Obviously, there are those that hold of R' Moshe's ruling, and therefore their keeping of literal CV is a hiddur - but then one would not kasher keilim after using "milk of companies", as one would not kasher for a hiddur.
Then there are those that do not hold of his ruling, and then they would kasher the keilim (as per the psak of R' Moshe for those people). Lubavitch (and many others) fall into this category.
As to my "agenda", simple: You want to be me'orer about a perceived laxity in pas palter - gezunterheit. Don't minimize the issue of CY/CA (and distort the IM) to make your point. [And no, I did not minimize pas palter (as I went out of my way to point out), I just pointed out that they are different...].

Last edited by Torah613; 02-20-2005 at 03:08 PM.
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