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Unread 07-24-2002, 01:35 PM   #201
WanderingJew
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hey, all of this thread basically is opinion...nothing is black and white...music is a really grey area, aint too many dinim in SA under that entry
what you can do is try to understand all the issues and aspects discussed, and then you play the judge and decide what your level should be.
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Unread 07-24-2002, 01:53 PM   #202
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matter of opinion? which everybody is "entitled" to, I assume
There are actually quite a few sources quoted in this thread, like in posts 7, 11, 86, 98 and others.
MY personal opinion on this matter is that deep down we know the truth. We know what is holy and what isn't. Now that doesn't mean we want to listen to holy music exclusively. But we DO know what's what. Let's not kid ourselves.
And if we're struggling with this, let's remember that when we raise our own kids. I've said it before, but it bears repeating many more times: don't impose your limitations on your kids! Don't make your kids ask the identical questions you are asking now!
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Unread 07-24-2002, 08:57 PM   #203
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About Chevrah...why does everyone make them out to be so bad? I mean, according to some of you, lots and lots of other singers take goyishe tunes, and not just the known ones, like Shlock Rock and Piamentas! Mordechai Ben David, Uncle Moishy, no-one is out bashing them! Why is that? Is it because Chevrah takes more known tunes, or...what?
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Unread 07-25-2002, 01:06 AM   #204
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I, for one, didn't know that any of Chevra's tunes were stolen. I thought they were original, and everyone bashes them because of the style.

FYI, the song "The Captain's Kol Nidrei" on Yiddish Gems II is stolen from a Russian folk song called "Katchigaru". (I had forgotten about it before - sorry!) I'll fill in the details of the story behind it later, bezH.
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Unread 07-25-2002, 01:21 AM   #205
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is a song that has not been stolen, but is totally original but with a goyishe flavour much better than a stolen song?

In other words just becuse certain singers dont sing stolen songs hardly deems their music jewish.
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Unread 07-25-2002, 06:04 AM   #206
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jude
that story needs a source! I mean, really! Why would the Chasid keep on singing a tune the Besht objected to?
Source= Skolya Rebbe Z"L (dor achar dor from the BSh"T) who only repeated stories about his ancestor of which he had a direct mesorah dor achar dor.
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Unread 07-25-2002, 09:25 PM   #207
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[quote]Originally posted by Lubamessimaniac
[b]I, for one, didn't know that any of Chevra's tunes were stolen. I thought they were original, and everyone bashes them because of the style.

Really? Could someone please clarify the real reason? Are their tunes really goyishe? Or is it just the style?
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Unread 07-27-2002, 11:40 PM   #208
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Someone recently told me that Avraham Fried's tune for the song "My Fellow Jew" came from a goyishe love song....
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Unread 07-27-2002, 11:45 PM   #209
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When I asked someone how Rebbeim can take goyishe tunes (ex. Napoleon's March) and make them niggunim, (I"m not saying this to be disrespectful, I'm just curouis) yet when singers and composers do it, they are bashed, how can that be? isn't it our job to elevate everything? They couldn't answer me, so I was wondering, is this the kind of question that just does NOT have an answer?
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Unread 07-27-2002, 11:50 PM   #210
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It probably makes a diffrence who is doing the elevating - not every "Tom dick and harry" knows how to elevate - aderabe he may get dragged down.
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Unread 07-28-2002, 07:23 AM   #211
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Shlucha, i find that pretty interesting. cuz as far as i know, the tune is an original one that was first made public on that album.
funny how rumors spread.
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Unread 07-28-2002, 10:13 AM   #212
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usually the name of the composer is written with each song

anyway, about who composed Uforatzta (to correct the misinformation posted earlier):

Yosef Marton, conductor of the famous Nichoach choir, composed Uforatzta along with his friend Efraim Levi a'h.

<<It was the late 50's during the Aseres Yemei Teshuva. One day we were sitting around and learning through the Sefer Ha'Niggunim when we came across a certain melody and started to hum it. It was still fresh in our minds a short while later when we attended the sheva brachos of Rabbi Moshe Landau, rav of Bnei Brak.

In the course of the sheva brachos, R' Zushe Posner, shliach of the Rebbe, stood up and gave over a sicha about the concept of "uforatzta", the same sicha in which the Rebbe adopted those words as his official slogan. It was an amazing sicha, and everyone present was very moved.

After he had finished speaking, they tried to fit the words of the pasuk into several different melodies, but without success. Meanwhile the niggun which Efraim and I had just been humming was still going around in our heads. It was an almost perfect fit. Only a few notes had to be altered and the song was born.

By Simchas Torah the niggun had reached Kfar Chabaad. Everyone was talking about the sicha and singing the song. Before long, Uforatzta had "crossed over," and was a popular Israeli hit! It was all you heard on the radio, and was sung by many different recording artists. Once, I even heard it introduced as a "popular Israeli Chasidic folk song." The niggun had lived up to its name and had positively "burst forth" upon the Israeli consciousness.

Years later I was telling a younger person how the song had come about and he refused to believe me. "What are you talking about?" he said, "It's an old Israeli folk song. I remember it from my childhood.

Of course the song got back to the Rebbe too. Someone told me that Rebbetzin Chaya Mushka a'h had once heard it being played and had commented, "That sounds like Uforatzta ...">>
---------------------------------------------------
btw - the same thing happened with Carlebach. There are people who don't believe that certain songs are his. In some song books it says "traditional" instead of his name as the composer!
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Unread 07-28-2002, 06:18 PM   #213
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jude thanks for the correction about uforutzto.

on the topic of 'traditional' on one of dedis tapes where he sings boruch hagever, it is also described as traditional, i think it should have said traditionally goyish!!
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Unread 07-28-2002, 08:16 PM   #214
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you know lately i have attended farbrengens with young bochurim and for some reason they sing only lebedike niggunim or songs in english composed in camp etc. why cant they sing normal chassidishe songs that are pasik for a farbrengen?
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Unread 07-28-2002, 08:26 PM   #215
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i agree with you leayis, worse still for me is when they sing a slow niggun pasik etc but with words of a camp song.

I recall from yeshiva days (showing my age?!) the whole year revolved around the summer. From purim pesach on everyone is discussing what they are doing for the summer and till then everyone is reminiscing about the summer, perhaps singing the camp songs reinforces a gantz yor camp!!!
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Unread 07-28-2002, 08:31 PM   #216
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one of the reasons for farbrengen is ichud chaveirim - a freliche niggun in the proper oyfin can surely bring to that -no? as to camp songs - one of the ziknei anash was recently farbrenging for us and kitov libo bayayin he just let loose with "the shliach said it's not true...." with tears streaming down his face.
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Unread 07-28-2002, 08:37 PM   #217
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vus, like you say 'one of the reasons.....' no one is saying freiliche nigunim should be banned ch'v by farbrangens, many freiliche nigunim were sung at Rebbe's farbranens etc, but there is a unique enveloping atmosphere and mood that can be created through slower nigunei dveykus etc
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Unread 07-30-2002, 12:40 AM   #218
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Boruch Hagever isn't goyish! It's from Amudai Shaish Boys Choir, and I think it was written by Shmuel Borger. (A few friends and I just recorded it in a studio a coupla days ago...)
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Unread 07-30-2002, 12:51 AM   #219
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lubmes, i don't know which boruch hagever youre talking about but the one i mentioned is go go goyish....
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Unread 07-30-2002, 05:57 AM   #220
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Quote:
Originally posted by downunda
vus, like you say 'one of the reasons.....' no one is saying freiliche nigunim should be banned ch'v by farbrangens, many freiliche nigunim were sung at Rebbe's farbranens etc, but there is a unique enveloping atmosphere and mood that can be created through slower nigunei dveykus etc
Agreed - every niggun has its time, place, and purpose. Al derech moshol - tonight we had what I would call a "successful farbreng" -a real chasiddishe mashpia farbrenged with us, we came out b'po'el with a few "uvichein"s and the mashpia even stayed afterwards to talk to some local litvishe bochurim who came to "watch the show" - and they ended up being koveia a private farbreng in his house! And lemaisa we didn't sing one niggun deveikus. I'm sure nobody can write a program or rigid set of instructions for a geshmake farbreng - amol azay, amol azay. But again - agreed.
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Unread 07-30-2002, 08:33 PM   #221
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Downunda, I'm talking about the famous one - Shlock Rock, Dedi and Amudai Shaish sing it. It's as old as the hills! Where do you get your info from? Have you heard the original?
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Unread 07-30-2002, 08:50 PM   #222
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The story with the Kol Nidrei's song:

I was at a farbrengen in Beer Sheva with R' Moishe Dickshtein, and he told the following anecdote:

"When we were in yeshiva, our mashpia was R' Shlomo Chaim Kesselman. He was in general a very holy Jew. However, bochurim, being bochurim, once decided to play a little trick on him at a farbrengen. We began to sing a slow Zionist tune with ai aiaiai's and kevetch'n like a niggun. To our amusement, R' Shlomo Chaim listened carefully, closed his eyes and rocked back and forth, getting into the "niggun"...

When R' Mendel Futerfas came to Israel, we decided to play the same trick on him. To our shock, as soon as he heard the beginning of the song, he shouted, "No! No! If you're going to steal a tune, steal one with TOICHEN!" And he began to sing the song Katchigaru (which we know as the Captain's Kol Nidrei). The story of the song is about a train engineer - the coal shoveler who worked in Russia. Since he knew that the train had to drive quickly for the Motherland, he shoveled his coal faster and faster... The heat got more intense, but nevertheless, he plugged on... until... he died from the heat!

"THAT," R' Mendel said, "Is a song with toichen! We have to be so ibbergegeben to the work, and so fired up with doing Hashem's work just like that Katchigaru..."
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Unread 07-30-2002, 09:14 PM   #223
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Quote:
Originally posted by WanderingJew
Shlucha, i find that pretty interesting. cuz as far as i know, the tune is an original one that was first made public on that album.
funny how rumors spread.
The person who told me that seemed pretty sure...well, I'll check with them again. Anyway, if you read above, it seems that no-one is absolutely certian (even if they think they are) that the tune came from goyishe music.
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Unread 07-30-2002, 09:18 PM   #224
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ahem, in my youth when amudei sheish's boruch ha'gever came out, it created a sensation. I think it wasn't ONLY because the tune was obviously goyish, but because it sounded so outrageous with the words, and the harmonies were ridiculously 50's rock and roll ...
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Unread 08-07-2002, 10:03 PM   #225
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A little more of the non-Jewish Jewish songs: Tzlil V'zemer is quite a culprit, with three non-Jewish songs to my knowledge, possible more. And they are : (drum roll, please!)

Let Us Grow
B'Tzeis Yisrael (Both on Vol. 5)
Shma Bni (on Vol. 8)
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