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Unread 07-12-2002, 07:50 PM   #176
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Okay, my previous question still stands (as no one has addressed it). Can someone PLEASE answer this?
My question is, how are Chassidishe children who only listen to Jewish music (I know, there are some difficulties as to what exactly Jewish music is, but anyway...) and they never listen to goyishe music, how are they to know that the Jewish music they are listening to is really goyishe tunes? The only bands I knew (and don't listen to) that took goyishe tunes were Piamentas, Oif Simchas, and Shlock Rock. And to me, that's it. I had no idea (like I said before) that Avraham Fried, MBD, Mendy Wald (I can't remember all the others, but I know there's a lot more) was questionable, and not so good....
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Unread 07-14-2002, 12:08 AM   #177
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That's a good point, Wahoo... and basically it seems as if every singer does that. Am I wrong on that? I mean, Avraham Fried, you can't get much more Jewish than that, yknow? BTW, whoever said that all these singers take goyishe music, (and I don't remember who it was) are you sure about that? It doesn't seem to make sense.
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Unread 07-14-2002, 12:17 AM   #178
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<<I mean, Avraham Fried, you can't get much more Jewish than that, yknow?>>

That's what I thought . . .
The fact that it was questionable did not come from me, I read about it in this thread (in a previous post).
Same goes with singers taking goyishe music. I would have never known that (except for the 3 bands that I mentioned above) until I read it on this site.
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Unread 07-14-2002, 01:07 AM   #179
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I've never heard of any Avraham Fried songs being stolen.

MBD's Yidden, Shir Shel Shalom, Di Kup Filt Mit Tzor'n (the Yiddish song on Just One Shabbos) are all stolen - (I've heard the originals - blieve it or not, all from background music in malls and things!)

Piamenta's Yalla Mashiach, Asher Bara, Mitzva Gedola, Baruch Haba, Rotzim Mashiach are all stolen. But again, their decision was made WITH an answer from the Rebbe. (I wrote about that somewhere else.)

Oif Simchas has a whole bunch - but I don't know their stuff well. (Anachnu Dor Mitzuyan is stolen, tho.)

I don't know anything about Mendy Wald. Country Yossi, Variations, Shlock Rock and Rechnitzer Rejects all steal as a living (pardon the pun).

I'm sure this list can be larger; I just can't think of anything else at the moment.
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Unread 07-14-2002, 01:13 AM   #180
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The fact that it was questionable did not come from me, I read about it in this thread (in a previous post).
Same goes with singers taking goyishe music. I would have never known that (except for the 3 bands that I mentioned above) until I read it on this site. [/b][/quote]

No, I meant for the person who originally said that to explain if that was based on something he/she knew, or an assumption, or what. Because it seems to not make much sense to me. I mean, that doesn't leave you with much to listen to (if you are going by the not-listening-to-jewish-music-to-goysihe-tunes), besdides for niggunim, which, don't get me wrong, is NOT a bad thing, but as a few people have mentioned before, not everyone is on that high level.
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Unread 07-14-2002, 01:22 AM   #181
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thanks, Lubamessimanic for that list!
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Unread 07-14-2002, 01:39 AM   #182
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Wow. Thanks also, Lubamessimaniac, for your list. That just goes to show that I have NO idea what I am listening to . . .

So the question is, if I don't know that the song is taken from a goyishe tune, how am I to know to keep away from it?
OR does it need to be kept away from at all, or is the goyishe tune now 'elevated?' Like does the fact that it is now a "Jewish song" make it ok to listen to or not?
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Unread 07-14-2002, 12:28 PM   #183
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more for your list:
Uncle Moishy, 613 Torah Avenue, and Simchaman use many goyishe songs
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Unread 07-14-2002, 12:39 PM   #184
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Well then if so many of our singers take goyishe tunes, is there still something wrong with it? (Not that it makes it ok just cuz so many do it, but like if it's wrong, it rules out most Jewish singers). If goyishe tunes-now Jewish can't be listened to, then there doesn't seem to be anything Jewish that can be?
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Unread 07-14-2002, 05:18 PM   #185
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jude
more for your list:
Uncle Moishy, 613 Torah Avenue, and Simchaman use many goyishe songs

These singers are for kids, so they are taking goyishe kids tunes. Is that as bad as taking regular goyishe tunes? I mean, (hopefully) these kids song are not, for the most part, relaying values and morals that are against the Torah.
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Unread 07-14-2002, 07:04 PM   #186
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the songs they use are not necessarily kids' songs! and of course they are being used to teach about Torah and mitzvos and middos! That's not in question. The issue is the same for adults - conveying Torah ideas or actually using pesukim, using goyishe music.
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Unread 07-14-2002, 07:07 PM   #187
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no no, I meant the original goyishe songs relaying values and morals opposing the Torah, NOT like Uncle Moishy, 613, etc's songs!!! My questions was is it as bad to take goyishe tunes from kids songs, which hopefully do not have things that are agaist the Torah and to take it and make a Jewish song for kids...as bad as to take a regular goyishe song wich proabably includes grub language, morals opposing Torah, etc. and to put it to the words of a posuk!
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Unread 07-14-2002, 07:42 PM   #188
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aha, well, like I said, the goyish tunes used in Jewish kiddie music are not necessarily kiddie music! And even if the original words were fine and uplifting, they were composed by goyim ...
Listen, it doesn't have to be all or nothing, or at least not at first (though see thread on Step by Step vs. Leaping ) This thread is very long and we've seen there are different levels ranging from Chabad Chasidic nigunim exclusively to so-called Jewish music which sounds and looks (in concert) goyish, and music in between. If you're in between, know that there's better, and if you're a parent, or when you will IYH be a parent, DON'T INFLICT your lower standards on your innocent kids!
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Unread 07-21-2002, 01:20 AM   #189
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It was mentioned before that only a Rebbe could elevate a goyishe song (presumably b/c it comes from the shlalosh kelipos hatameios), so can they then elevate a pig, b/c it comes from the same thing (skh)???
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Unread 07-21-2002, 01:03 PM   #190
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ok holy brothers and sisters, so her's a true story about the Bal Shem Tov. So once he was sitting with the Chevraya Kadisha and he told one of them to start a niggun. When he started the niggun the Holy Bal Shem Tov stopped him immediately and asked him where he heard it. He thought for a moment and realized that he passed by a terrible place on the way and that's where he heard it from a window. The next week the same thing happens - the chosid starts the niggun and the Holy Bal Shem Tov stops him. After about 6 or 7 weeks of the same thing happening, the Holy Bal Shem Tov starts to clap along! Then the Holy Bal Shem Tov explains - when yidden sing a niggun many times, they can make it so holy -mamash a gevald! (this is an actual true story, b'misora from an einekle of the Bal Shem Tov dor achar dor)
The problem is, of course, singing it before it has its halo'oh!
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Unread 07-21-2002, 02:08 PM   #191
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So are you saying (from your story) that we can elevate all songs? That by taking a goyishe tune and putting Jewish words to it, it becomes elevated?
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Unread 07-21-2002, 02:30 PM   #192
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that story needs a source! I mean, really! Why would the Chasid keep on singing a tune the Besht objected to?
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Unread 07-21-2002, 05:59 PM   #193
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What about "Hava Nagilah"? It used to be a chasidisher niggun (w/out words) and the Tziyonim used it for thier song and the Rebbe Rashab (I think) said since they took it let them have it!
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Unread 07-21-2002, 06:55 PM   #194
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B"H

Lubamessimaniac said back in page 1 or 2, "I think the song "Od Yishoma" on their album "The Way You Like It" has a bit of a grubb flavor to it. "

Being a BT, and just out of a "Jewish day school", I know from when I studied Music that Jazz, Rock and most upbeat music today stemmed from Black church music.

Piamenta's have alot of different styles and I don't think Oid Yeshama is that bad even though it may be a bit grub , however soemother songs by diaspra and piamenta and alot of bands (i.e. Haleluka, L'shana Habaah etc..) I would think these would be worse than "grub" sounding music because it is much closer along the music evolution chain to church music.

BTW at the sydney 2000 olympics they played Hava Nagilah alot.
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Unread 07-21-2002, 11:55 PM   #195
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Hmmm... Ephy, it's tough to argue with someone who seems to know what they're talking about! But that just adds a more confusing twist into the whole thing: If it all comes from black church music, what IS good? At least, with the Piamentas, I know that they played by the Rebbe MANY times and the Rebbe gave them brochos... I would say that that should be matir most other stuf... and I'd stick with my opinion as ihave proffessed so far.
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Unread 07-22-2002, 12:00 AM   #196
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The Quill of the Soul (or the Yetzer's Hatchet)

From the time of Adam Harishoin until today, music has retained a position as true expression of man's soul. The greatest moments in Jewish history, whether in triumph or defeat, have been remembered in song. Moshiach's coming will add a new note - lifting music to a completely higher level than known to mankind until now. But the way it was once is entirely different than the way we know it today - with an explosion of the market of Jewish music, clarification is needed to tell us what is Jewish and what isn't, what is for our children's sensitive ears and what isn't.

The Frierdiker Rebbe defined the different levels of Niggunim by classifying them on three terms: Niggun Hamechuvan, Niggun Hamemula, and Niggun Shoitim. A "Niggun Hamechuvan" - or "Song with Intentions" - is a Rebbe's niggun. Whether this is any particular Rebbe's personal composition or a song beloved by him until it receives his name, this is a niggun which has perfectly placed inflections and notes. Every piece symbolizes deep ideas. For this reason, one must be extremely careful to sing the Niggunim Hamechuvanim perfectly. On a different occasion, the Frierdiker Rebbe expressed himself by saying, "In order to understand a Niggun Hamechuvan, one must learn the Chassidus of the Rebbe who composed that song." When a Chossid sings a song of the Rebbe, he attaches himself to the Rebbe's thought.
For example, the Niggun of Four Parts - also known as the Alter Rebbe's Great Niggun, or Moshiach's Shofar - Each stanza represents one of the four worlds. As the singer enters the song, the niggun brings his soul higher and higher, entering each of the worlds in succession. The Rebbe Rashab explained this Niggun in great detail, and in general, it is only to be sung on specific occasions. "This Niggun," says the Frierdiker Rebbe, "is heard in the Upper Gan Eden - in Radla*. A Chassidisher Niggun in general lifts one up above the physical three handbreadths, a Rebbe's niggun much more, but the Alter Rebbe's Niggun of Four Parts lifts one from the lowest depths to the highest heights! What is meant by the 'highest heights' is that the intellect should be reflected in actual Divine service."

A Chassidisher niggun is a Niggun Memula - a "full" song. This may be described as a Niggun that the elder Chassidim used for davening, for farbrengens, or for the simple thanks to Hashem that we are alive. When we sing these niggunim, we feel G-dliness.

So much for authentic Chassidic music. But where does the music of modern Jewish performers fit in? We have many new styles infiltrating our ears - some of it developed from extreme non-Jewish rock, rap and disco - is this Jewish music?

Maybe we'd be best off by quoting one of these contemporary artists: "A Jewish song of any kind/ Is only precious if and when/ it brings us closer to Hashem!" So sings Abie Rotenberg in Journeys 3. Maybe we can consider this the number one guideline for which music is Kosher. I once spoke with Rabbi Yosef Yitzchak Wilschansky, Rosh Yeshiva of the Lubavitcher Yeshiva of Tzfat, about this subject. His reply was very basic, yet extremely precise; "Set yourself a line between the Jewish music and non-Jewish music within the Jewish market." When I asked him for clarification, he answered bluntly, "Oif Simchess." This group, whose songs consist mostly of disco music, have songs which many of their listeners do not even know the words. Would any American listener care to translate them, he would notice the group addressing straight to the non-religious crowd, not a message for the average religious child!

But is the Jewishness reflected in the lyrics alone? We have tapes such as the set of "Solid Gold", which portray Jewish artists singing songs with Jewish lyrics. Unfortunately, many holy words have been usurped to "convert" some outlandish songs. Maybe we can consider these as "Niggunim Tipshim" - Fool's songs, of which there is no meaning or Jewish feeling in the melody. The words are just twisted into the song, having absolutely no relation to the feeling brought out by the tune! As we quoted from R' Abie above: music must bring us closer to Hashem, and we must sing His praises in true Jewish spirit. Anything else is just an attempt at gratifying another physical desire.

Unfortunately, music is not your average run-of-the-mill desire: As it has the power to cause cataclismic changes in a person, it may do so in a negative way as well as positive. The most extreme example of this is the case of Elisha Ben Avuya, who was at one time one of the greatest of the Tannaim. Well known as the teacher of Rabbi Meir, he also was one of Rbbi Akiva's greatest peers, and in fact was one of the four who entered the Pardes, but did not escape intact. The gemara in Chagiga (14b) asks, "What happened to Acheir? Greek music never ceased from his lips." Another version (Rashi): "Greek music never ceased from his house." Rashi explains that this was due to the destruction of the Beis Hamikdash (See Gilyon Hashas, and Rashi on Hoishea, 9,1). The Maharsha says that it was due to the heresy in the content of the music. We may explain that according to a statement of the Frierdiker Rebbe: "Niggunim are used to draw the idea on which a person is meditating into his essence." It seems that Acher brought the Greek philosophy into his essence, causing him to be an incredible sinner!

Does our music have this ability? Or is there nothing wrong with listening to Yanni (or the "Jewish" - "Yavvi")? Is Metallish the same as Metallica? Or may the "Musaica" (produced by Killer Productions) pass as Chassidic? Granted these are slightly aideler than their non-Jewish counterparts, but we have none from amongst our children to spare to any quirky side-effects. A very common move for teenagers is to move from the imitation to the "real stuff" - we must ensure that they change from imitation Chassidic music to pure Chassidisher Niggunim.

Saying such, may we merit hearing the Tenth Niggun, the Niggun of Moshiach, from the lips of the Rebbe Melech Hamoshiach, immediately!

(All of the above is IMHO.)
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Last edited by Lubamessimaniac; 07-22-2002 at 12:02 AM.
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Unread 07-22-2002, 02:45 PM   #197
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whew Luba...great synopsis
(did they pay u to write this? )
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Unread 07-22-2002, 06:44 PM   #198
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i know i'm a bit late but i believe Shlomo carlebach composed the song uforutzto
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Unread 07-23-2002, 07:11 AM   #199
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Thanx for the compliment - I had written two years ago (before Chabadtalk existed!) and it had sat on my computer untouched - till I was going through my old files...
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Unread 07-23-2002, 07:34 PM   #200
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K, this has been addressed many times, but after reading the whole thread like 100 times (k, that might be exaggerating a little, but you get the idea) I still have not found a clear answer. Could someone please sit down and just straight out give an answer? Thanks. Anyway, here it is.

Goyishe tunes that are taken and put to Pesukim/Hebrew Words/ English songs with Jewish themes....good? bad? absolutely CAN NOT be done? Is it good because you're elaviating the klipahdike sparks? I mean isn't everything supposed to be elevated to create a dira b'tachtonim?? Ok..so we're 'cleared' with that...Now. Should nice chassidishe kinder not listen to that type of stuff? If not...well, 'that type of stuff' covers a lot of ground... As people have mentioned...

And PLEASE do not tell me to reread the whole thread....If all this was answered once, tell me the post #, thanks!
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