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Unread 06-06-2002, 09:52 PM   #151
noahidelaws
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BS"D Yeah, I agree. Since when does knowing how to sing and perform well mean one has a hoicher neshomo? Hey, even goyim can do that lehavdil.
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Unread 06-06-2002, 09:54 PM   #152
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I doubt he meant it because of Carlebach's performing abilities
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Unread 06-06-2002, 10:46 PM   #153
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Why is that such a ridiculous statement? It's pretty obvious to me anyway, that Carlebach must indeed have had a "hoicher neshoma"-judging by what he accomplished and the musical treasures he revived, not to mention the thousands of pple he inspired, and who continue to be inspired by his music today.
Carlebach Chassidim-know any? I do!
Leayis, maybe that exactly, is why he erred....
the higher the source, the lower the fall??
but that does not make null and void the good that he did...
let's give credit where credit is due!
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Unread 06-06-2002, 11:50 PM   #154
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Leayis, anyone who knows his history would realize that he had a hoiche neshomo and screwed up royally.

1. He was a ben bayis by the Frierdiker Rebbe.
2. He was one of the first shluchim.
3. Ask anyone who was around then - he used to come into Crown Heights, buy the latest Likkutei Sichos and know it bál peh by the next day. (He was known to be an incredible genius.)
4. His ability to mekarev people, although we don't agree with most of his methods, was absolutely uncanny.
5. Being that his songs have such acceptance in the Jewish world, I would even venture to say that they can be used for avoidas Hashem - although a Chabad chossid would never do such a thing because of Carlebach himself. He was definitely someone who had a yerida in his ruchnisdikeh life.

Rebayzl, must I clarify that the Carlebach concert my father went to was not even the haschola to his return to frumkeit - I was saying that it was at least something Jewish that he went to as a not-yet-frum college student.
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Unread 06-07-2002, 09:12 AM   #155
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and if it WAS the haschala? must BT's apologize and be embarrassed that their first step in the right direction was thanks to Carlebach?
hey, guess what - lots and lots of BT's feel just that way about Chabad (i.e. that they don't want to reveal that it was Chabad that started them off )
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Unread 06-08-2002, 03:15 AM   #156
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Jude - you're right; but I wanted to clarify to Rebayzl that there is no Carlebach connection to blame any of my opinions on...
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Unread 06-24-2002, 09:28 PM   #157
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I've heard countless times how they sang Carlebach's "We want Moshiach now" by the Rebbe.

1) They sang it once by a Lag B'Omer parade.
2) It was MBD, and when he started singing it, the Rebbe turned to him and said, (in Yiddish) "Did I come here for a concert?"

Also, (I heard from the grandchild of the person) Rebbitzin Chana told someone that the Rebbe had Agmus Nefesh from Carlebach.
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Unread 06-24-2002, 09:36 PM   #158
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BS"D <<I heard from the grandchild of the person) Rebbitzin Chana told someone that the Rebbe had Agmus Nefesh >>

Why can't you ask that person if he/she minds being named, so others can verify that story for themselves?
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Unread 06-24-2002, 09:40 PM   #159
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1) It's not important
2) Because the person (whom Rebbitzin Chana told) is no longer amongst the living.
3) The person who told me is a relation and would rather be anonymous on the forum
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Unread 06-24-2002, 10:04 PM   #160
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What is the point? there are enough thumbs down for Carlebach, the issue was shred to pieces over and over again.
i think the posts basically drew a common conclusion: Shlomo was great, did great things, and made great mistakes.
draw your own lines; there are no halochos anywhere regarding whose music you should or should not listen to.
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Unread 06-24-2002, 10:09 PM   #161
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1) I posted it because lately people have been making me crazy about the whole issue (not on Chabad Talk) and I therefore thought I'd mention it here as we have been discussing it anyways...

You are right, and in fact, I'm very naughty since I already said a while back (don't remember exactly what post) that I'm backing away from this thread as Carlebach is no longer amongst the living and he did do a lot of good... (Go and look back a few pages for that).

But, now I'm for real, I'm backing away from the Carlebach issue!

If you catch me writing about him again...
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Unread 06-24-2002, 10:12 PM   #162
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Ok Blew...it's all good...thanks.
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Unread 06-24-2002, 10:18 PM   #163
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BTW, I'm sorry if I've offended anyone here.
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Unread 06-30-2002, 12:50 AM   #164
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someone asked me recently why you are not supposed to listen to goyish music...when I explained to her about connecting to the soul of the composer, she thought that was the 'lamest excuse' (in her words) ever. It hurt me that she didn't accept that answer....is there another reason, not, Chas V'shalom, to 'shield' people from the truth if they might not like to hear it, but to give them an answer that they might think, 'hey, that makes a lot of sense, maybe I'll only listen to Jewish music from now on..."
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Unread 06-30-2002, 01:31 PM   #165
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You might find it helpful to read the whole thread from the beginning so you can get the whole story, or whatever of it is here.
although you were totally on the mark, she might just not be interested in hearing the truth. that cerainly doesn't change the truth, though
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Unread 07-06-2002, 09:26 AM   #166
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i think that shlucha is right somewtimes in some circum,stances that this reason is a lame excuse but wtvr
also this carlebach thing is it loshon hora or not b/c he is dead?
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Unread 07-07-2002, 10:33 PM   #167
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Wow, this forum taught me a lot of things that I had no idea about (e.x. that Avraham Fried and MBD's music was even questionable???? I always thought that that was Chassidishe music ... I was obviously wrong or something) My question is, how are Chassidishe children who only listen to Jewish music (I know, there are some difficulties as to what exactly Jewish music is, but anyway...) and they never listen to goyishe music, how are they to know that the Jewish music they are listening to is really goyishe tunes? The only bands I knew (and don't listen to) that took goyishe tunes were Piamentas, Oif Simchas, and Shlock Rock. And to me, that's it. I had no idea (like I said before) that Avraham Fried, MBD, Mendy Wald (I can't remember all the others, but I know there's a lot more) was questionable, and not so good....
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Unread 07-07-2002, 10:36 PM   #168
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Oh and another thing... What's with Carlebach? I feel like I'm getting mixed messages : some ppl are saying he did great things and is a wonderful person, and other's are hinting to the fact that he did some pretty bad things. What DID he do? And is his music okay or not? (I also had never heard that there was anything up with him?)

Gee I must really be behind the times, or 'out of it' or something ...
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Unread 07-07-2002, 11:46 PM   #169
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First of all, although I want to bring up more points and questions, I don't want Wahoo's questions to be ignored, b/c I was actually thinking the same things and was going to post it, but (she? he?) got to it b4 me.


First of all...I chanced upon a room in our daycamp where they were playing Chevreh's Yehei Shloma Raba (during the 3 weeks, noch.... ). I had never heard Chevreh before, because I heard ABOUT it first (thanks, all you guys!) and it did not sound so bad to me at all. It sounded very smooth and not loud and 'in your face' kind of thing. And so I'll echo Wahoo's question...how was I supposed to know that it was taken from a goysh music band??? In my mind, goyish music is rock and roll, like what shlock rock has. That seemed to calm to be goyish, to me at least. I know that is a big misconception.

I heard there is this goyish band that has 2 'Jewish songs,' I don't know what the band is or what the songs are...something like 'how are you...oy vey, oy vey..." but it's a completely 'trief' band...whats with that? Mutur, Assur, Kachkacha? Do you even know what I"m talking about?


Some very good questions were brought up in the begining of this thread...and after reading it a few times... I couldn't find clear answeres. I just found a lot of discussion on carlebach...Anyway, could someone please (clearly) answer these:
1) What makes music goyish, the tune, or the words, or both? definitely the words, maybe also the tune? so what is so wrong about taking a goyish tune and putting it to a posuk?
Had some more, but I forgot them, so when I remember, I'll be back!
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Unread 07-08-2002, 12:31 AM   #170
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The following is all my personal opinion:

<<What makes music goyish, the tune, or the words, or both? definitely the words, maybe also the tune? so what is so wrong about taking a goyish tune and putting it to a posuk? >>

The words in a song for sure influence whether the song is Jewish. If the words do not reflect Jewish beliefs, Torah ethics or teachings or what-not then the song is not Jewish. There has to be some substance to the song.
If a tune that was first sung by a non-Jewish person, and then a Jewish person took it and added pesukim - I think that for a frum/chassidshe person to listen to it is a yeridah for sure, and pretty grub. The only OK's for someone to listen to it is a becoming frum person, or someone who is turning to that instead of totally goyishe music.
Like other posters said before, only Rebbeim can elevate a non-jewish tune (and perhaps certain chassidim) but not just any singer.
When a goy comes up with a tune and puts their words to it, that tune is slated "kelipah." We cannot take it and change the words and slate it oursleves "kedushah." ch"v
Like someone said to me once, "There is garbage in this world that we just CANNOT elevate. It is doing an injustice to the pesukim, or to the Rabbi who said those words, to try to fit it to a trashy goyishe tune." So basically what I am saying is, to have a Jewish song, the words and the tune need to be sincerely 'Jewish.'
This post may have been confusing, so let me know if you need clarification ...
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Unread 07-08-2002, 11:57 PM   #171
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Okay, I think I get that, Wahoo...interesting.

Anyway, a few more things to say: I think things like Chevrah ARE a good idea, for people who would be listening to goyish music were it not there. But the trick is to know if you are the kind of person who NEEDS music like that...and I don't know how many of us are able to be that honest, in the face of good music.

I know this is a really strange thought, and it'll seem like I'm justifying those singers who take goyishe tunes, and maybe I am...but whatever. Have you ever tried to make up your own tune? Believe me, it's not that easy. So if you are making a cd with ten songs, thats TEN new tunes you have to come up with, or at least add a different twist to one. You can't really take another tune from songs everyone knows, I mean, Hamalach Hagoel to the tune of Mi Ma might sound a little strange...so you take a tune from the goyishe velt, assuming or hoping that not too many people will recognize it (I know I wouldn't!!) Someone please correct me if I'm wrong...but all these songs in the goyishe velt...are they all original tunes, too? I mean, there are SOO many songs, and if each one were an original tune....
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Unread 07-09-2002, 10:24 AM   #172
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<< When a goy comes up with a tune and puts their words to it, that tune is slated "kelipah." We cannot take it and change the words and slate it oursleves "kedushah." ch"v >>

If it's from klipas noga it is our job to elevate it.
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Unread 07-09-2002, 11:03 AM   #173
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Shlucha: I don't quite get it. You're saying it's hard to make up tunes, so Jewish singers take goyish tunes. But then where do the goyim get their tunes?
Carlebach said he never heard a B-----s song, THE most popular group when Carlebach was first becoming a Jewish singing star. And I believe him because I cannot detect any non-Jewish music influences in his music. A Carlebach tune sounds like a Carlebach tune and like nothing else.
Anyway, if you (someone) want to be in the music business, but you can't come up with anything original, maybe the music business is not for you ...
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Unread 07-09-2002, 06:54 PM   #174
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I know, I know.
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Unread 07-10-2002, 01:08 AM   #175
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Firstly Shlucha, it seems like you have not read all the previous posts, as some of them do give you a major insight into this whole deal. (I strongly suggest you read some of the older posts on this)

Secondly, look back and see, there are plenty of Jewish tunes and composers, the problem as I see it is the demand, people today are demanding more Goyshe-style music hence what is coming into our market. I believe if there were really a big want for Chassidic music it'll be delivered the next day...
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