Jewish Forum & Discussions - Chabad Talk  

Go Back   Jewish Forum & Discussions - Chabad Talk > Torah and Judaism > Halachah & Minhagim

Closed Thread
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 3 votes, 4.67 average. Display Modes
Unread 02-18-2002, 07:28 PM   #51
Clip
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 48
ChachChach, when there's a will, there's a way. :p

I've heard people say that it depends on your background. If you were raised only listening to niggunim, you shouldn't listen to other Jewish music, because it would be a step down; but if you've listening to non-Jewish music, listening to that is a step up.

In this case, if someone grows up on niggunim, and then falls to listening to non-Jewish music, and then stops that for Jewish music (not niggunim), is that a step up, or a step down, or a combo?
__________________
*~*Everyone knows their limits, but the closer they get to their limits the further their limits get from them.*~*
Clip is offline  
Unread 02-19-2002, 03:14 AM   #52
Lubamessimaniac
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 505
By the way, I once asked my mashpia if I should only listen to niggunim, and the answer (surprisingly enough) was no - because by limiting yourself above your capabilities, you will ultimately break...

Re non-Jewish music: The gemara says that Elish ben Avuya (Rabbi Meir's teacher) fried out because "greek music never ceased from his mouth" (or, according to another girsa, "from his house".) I once saw an interesting explanation in a Hoůrois Hatmimim - it went into a detailed explanation, but the main point was that the Greek music had the same effect on him that niggunim are supposed to have on us: Being, that he was taking the Greek philosphy that he was learning and bringing it into his pnimiyus by singing Greek songs...

But back to the difference between Jewish and non-Jewish; It probably all depends on the hergesh of the person. Some people are up to higher levels, while others need The Chevra to keep them away from the Backstreet Boys! Basically, know your own level and stick to it.

However, goyishe music is extremely negatively powerful, as evidenced in the story above. I'm sure we all know people who began their frye life with listening to goyishe music. When in Ukraine, we used Russian rock songs that the kids used to sing to turn them around to Jewish words, but we declared our aversion and opposition to the original garbage strongly. I think the same goes with us - although we know many rock songs due to the influences of Shlock Rock, Variations, Country Yossi, the Yeadels (remember them, anyone?), Rechnitzer Rejects, Piamenta and other copy artists, (as well as many camp songs that we don't even realize,) that doesn't make the originals Kosher!
__________________
Is "Expire" the opposite of "Inspire"? Does that mean that if you're not inspired, you're dead?
Lubamessimaniac is offline  
Unread 02-19-2002, 03:45 AM   #53
BLewbavitch
Silver Member
 
BLewbavitch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 725
BH

<<I've heard people say that it depends on your background. If you were raised only listening to niggunim, you shouldn't listen to other Jewish music, because it would be a step down; but if you've listening to non-Jewish music, listening to that is a step up.>>

You raise an excellent point. But let me ask you, what about music like Yom Tov Ehrlich? (Just an example) Where does one draw the line? There aren't many people out there (at least to the best of my knowledge,) that ONLY listen to Niggunim, yes, there are some, but...

A story (as usual):

Across the street from the Rebbe Rashab's hotel in Berlin was a group of theatrical singers who were busy practicing for their next concert. The Rebbe sat out on his balcony and listened to them rehearse.
At one point, the Rebbe sent a messenger across the street to the lead singer, informing him that he had made a mistake and omitted a movement from one of his songs. The singer sent back word that he was aware of his omission, but was afraid that he would be unable to reach the difficult notes properly that day, as he was not in his finest form. He hoped that standing before the audience at the actual performance would have the effect of giving him the strength and confidence he needed. Enclosed was a complimentary ticket for the Rebbe.
The Rebbe sent back a note explaining that he did not wish to sit among the regular theatergoers. However, if it were possible to arrange a seat where no one could see him, amongst the singers themselves, he would be very grateful. The arrangements were made.
The Rebbe attended the concert, and returned to the hotel after hearing the higher notes of the song he'd admired.
(I add this story not as any ďproofĒ but because itís a nice story)
__________________
All the best,

BLewbavitch

:)"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life.":)

Last edited by BLewbavitch; 02-19-2002 at 03:56 AM.
BLewbavitch is offline  
Unread 02-19-2002, 04:03 AM   #54
Yehudiya
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 80
I've been reading all the different opinions on the subject and as far as I can see (correct me If I'm wrong)there is a point that noone has brought up.
IN this day and age the amount of frum kids (and I"m talking about your regular Lubavitch kids too)listening to non jewish music is huge.
So for every Jew who brings out a CD/Album It is a blessing.
Better that the kid listen to music with Jewish words and sing those words then sing non Jewish words.
If a Kid stops listening to even one non Jewish record because he/she liked the Jewish record no matter how rocked or jazzed up , then that Jewish singer has accomplished alot.
Think about that!
Yehudiya is offline  
Unread 02-19-2002, 04:10 AM   #55
BLewbavitch
Silver Member
 
BLewbavitch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 725
BH

Good point, will have to take that into consideration!

But I think the question of is it the same as listening to non-Jewish music [which someone mentioned] still stands. So in a sense, weíre back to square 1 (or 2). But itís definitely a point to ponder on.
__________________
All the best,

BLewbavitch

:)"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life.":)
BLewbavitch is offline  
Unread 02-19-2002, 05:45 AM   #56
Yehudiya
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 80
Does a Jew who composes Jewish Music have impure or unwanted thoughts in his head while he is composing the music?
Does he intend to just make Jews happy by spreading his music.
(I'm not going to mention the financial gain)
some points to ponder.
Yehudiya is offline  
Unread 02-19-2002, 09:22 AM   #57
Jude
Executive Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 8,345
about the theatrical singers and the Rebbe Rashab: what are we supposed to understand from the story? I think that people might very well think 1) (if they're not sympathetic to Chabad) that the Rebbe Rashab was mudern (modern) 2) that if the Rebbe went to secular concerts, so can they

There are other stories with the Rebbe Rashab (Maharash?) going to the theater. Again, I'm afraid people will assume that going to the theater is okay for them too when it's not.

Knowing what we do about Rebbeim, we have to assume that very deep things were going on here. We certainly don't think that the Rebbe Rashab was "into good music", right? So I think that stories like these have to be told with some explanation.

about frum kids listening to goyishe music and that any Jewish music is better:
I maintain, as I mentioned earlier, that unless you're a BT and coming from that kind of music, kids should be exposed to the Best of the Best.

Now, if you're going to tell me that FFB kids have fallen already, and that now they're in the category of BT when it comes to music and they need this kind of music, okay, but it's sad that this is what happens, and we should be aiming to prevent it!

Too much of our chinuch these days is based on COMPROMISE, not just in music, but in so many areas ... I guess this topic is for another thread.

as far as Carlbach: I'd like to comment on posts in the Jewish Music for Secular Kids thread.
I am not at all surprised the Rebbe wouldn't want anything but Chabad niggunim at a rally, farbrengen, wherever he is present. Though, possibly - I think some old niggunim, not Chabad, were sung at farbrengens, like the one introduced by the Georgian Yid, and others.
As far as what is sung at Chabad houses. I think some Chabad houses sing Carlebach tunes because the people who go to Chabad houses are familiar with them and they can easily sing along and feel comfortable. It's a truly amazing phenomenon, that Carlebach songs are sung by the most Chassidic (other than Chabad) groups, yeshivishe people, and Conservative, Reform etc. Sometimes his songs are played by others, and in the literature it says "traditional" instead of his name bec. his songs have so deeply penetrated the Jewish world that people often think they're songs from yesteryear!

From what I know, the sole reason Carlebach left Chabad officially (he still briefly attended farbrengens in later years, I'm told by those who saw him), is because Carlebach believed that just as a male must jump into the water to save a female because of pikuach nefesh, so too he can do things neged halacha (not only mixed seating but touching) for reasons of spiritual pikuach nefesh. Obviously the Rebbe disagreed with him, and the Rebbe is the Rebbe, and only his view is right.

Last edited by Jude; 02-19-2002 at 10:17 AM.
Jude is offline  
Unread 02-19-2002, 03:13 PM   #58
BLewbavitch
Silver Member
 
BLewbavitch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 725
BH

<<Knowing what we do about Rebbeim, we have to assume that very deep things were going on here. We certainly don't think that the Rebbe Rashab was "into good music", right? So I think that stories like these have to be told with some explanation.>>

I didnít write an explanation for a reason, I want to get peopleís reactions to it, I like yours, and itís pretty much what I thought. I think this whole subject reflects this; itís something that we canít fully understand! (Not that we shouldnít speak about it and try and resolve it)

<<as far as Carlbach:>>

The same way one can introduce Carlebach songs into the Prayers, one can just as well introduce Chabad Niggunim (or songs) for the Prayers. (I personally know a lot of Shluchim that DO this, and are BH very successful!)

<<From what I know, the sole reason Carlebach left Chabad officially (he still briefly attended farbrengens in later years, I'm told by those who saw him), is because Carlebach believed that just as a male must jump into the water to save a female because of pikuach nefesh, so too he can do things neged halacha (not only mixed seating but touching) for reasons of spiritual pikuach nefesh. Obviously the Rebbe disagreed with him, and the Rebbe is the Rebbe, and only his view is right.>>

I heard (a few times) a story; at the end of a function, Carlebach was standing with a Shliach, when a woman came over, she shook Carlebach's hand and turned to the Shliach with her hand, the Shliach refused and explained.... She turned to Carlebach, and he said, "no, he's (the Shliach) right, and I'm wrong"

My point is he disagreed with himself!
I'm retiring from this subject now, (youíll have to address me with a private message if you want to ask or tell me something on this subject) as I don't want to add any more Bizoyon for a man that DID do a lot of good work, and, especially that he's not among the living anymore.
__________________
All the best,

BLewbavitch

:)"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life.":)

Last edited by BLewbavitch; 02-19-2002 at 11:36 PM.
BLewbavitch is offline  
Unread 02-19-2002, 04:56 PM   #59
ChachChach
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 962
then the bottom line for music would be
a) goyishe music is bad
b) if you only listen to nigunim, stay right where you are
c) for the rest of the music...everyone should judge on their own level. judge honestly, mind you...bc most of the times, when ppl say "i cant do that", its not honest-you're setting limitations for yourself before you even attempt (as clip pointed out before).

i agree with the fact that if someone listened to nonjewish music, any jewish music is a step up. but dont forget its a STEP, ie, invovled more movement. there is a marked difference between shlock rock and avraham fried....
__________________
Siz doch altz hevel havalim-Ein od milvado!

Down with politics!
ChachChach is offline  
Unread 02-20-2002, 03:31 AM   #60
Lubamessimaniac
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 505
Well said, ChachChach!

Going back to Piamenta, they performed in front of the Rebbe MANY times. In fact, they were among the few performers who could actually keep up with the speed of the Rebbe's clapping! So it seems that it's not the style which makes something bad... Or is that similiar to BLewbavitch's story?
__________________
Is "Expire" the opposite of "Inspire"? Does that mean that if you're not inspired, you're dead?
Lubamessimaniac is offline  
Unread 02-20-2002, 09:13 AM   #61
rebayzl
Senior Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,354
French Anthem

I heard that in 5734, when the Rebbe was teaching us the new Hoaderes VeHoemuno with the French Tune, he asked R Hilel Pevzner (at the Farbrengen) he should sing the Tune, to which Pevzner replied, "How and why should I know that tune?!".

We see that the Rebbe expected even a Talmid Chacham of that Stature to listen and remember that "goyishe tune". How do we explain that?

Last edited by rebayzl; 02-20-2002 at 11:13 AM.
rebayzl is offline  
Unread 02-20-2002, 04:22 PM   #62
BLewbavitch
Silver Member
 
BLewbavitch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 725
BH

I don't think a national anthem comes under the category of "music"! (I know you wrote "goyishe tune")
__________________
All the best,

BLewbavitch

:)"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life.":)
BLewbavitch is offline  
Unread 02-20-2002, 04:40 PM   #63
nachmans
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 75
Tune

why is a national anthem not Music?
nachmans is offline  
Unread 02-21-2002, 07:56 PM   #64
BLewbavitch
Silver Member
 
BLewbavitch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 725
BH

Sorry, not the "same category" as regular non-Jewish music!
__________________
All the best,

BLewbavitch

:)"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life.":)
BLewbavitch is offline  
Unread 02-21-2002, 08:36 PM   #65
ChachChach
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 962
why would it be in a separate catagory?
__________________
Siz doch altz hevel havalim-Ein od milvado!

Down with politics!
ChachChach is offline  
Unread 02-21-2002, 08:41 PM   #66
BLewbavitch
Silver Member
 
BLewbavitch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 725
BH

Probably because of it's Toichen!
__________________
All the best,

BLewbavitch

:)"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life.":)
BLewbavitch is offline  
Unread 02-22-2002, 01:40 PM   #67
ChachChach
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 962
i'm sorry if i sound stupid, but im very confused. you mean if nonjewish music has a good toichen, it would be considered kosher?
__________________
Siz doch altz hevel havalim-Ein od milvado!

Down with politics!
ChachChach is offline  
Unread 02-22-2002, 05:00 PM   #68
BLewbavitch
Silver Member
 
BLewbavitch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 725
BH

No, when I wrote Toichen, I meant the reason behind it.

Let me rephrase my answer: A National Anthem (sung plain, without music) is not the same as non-Jewish music. It stands for something, -a country, - a nation. Unlike other music, which stimulates the heart [for whatever reason], an Anthem does not. (Although people tend to feel "patriotic" when singing it, and maybe even cry... This is not the achievement of the music per se, rather, the thought of what it stands for.)
__________________
All the best,

BLewbavitch

:)"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life.":)

Last edited by BLewbavitch; 02-24-2002 at 06:27 PM.
BLewbavitch is offline  
Unread 02-23-2002, 10:30 PM   #69
Lubamessimaniac
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 505
Many people think, "Since I know non-Jewish rock songs, I can identify with a fry kid, and he feels more comfortable with me, since we have something in common." This is a true statement only concerning music which you already know . Don't fool yourself into listening to goyishe music under this logic, because then you may gain someone by losing yourself! Anyway, most of us know enough goyishe tunes as it is, already, from MBD, Country Yossi, etc.
__________________
Is "Expire" the opposite of "Inspire"? Does that mean that if you're not inspired, you're dead?
Lubamessimaniac is offline  
Unread 02-24-2002, 03:21 AM   #70
BLewbavitch
Silver Member
 
BLewbavitch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 725
BH

What's interesting, I was sitting this Shabbos with a person thatís not so frum, and I asked him this question about the National Anthem? He pretty much summed it up like I did.
__________________
All the best,

BLewbavitch

:)"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life.":)
BLewbavitch is offline  
Unread 02-24-2002, 04:28 PM   #71
Lubamessimaniac
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 505
I was walking with a not-yet-frum kid yesterday, and during the conversation he asked me if there is any modern Jewish music. I named a few groups, and also mentioned the controversy we have. Interestungly enough, he said that he thinks Jewish music doesn't have to be too wild for it to gain approval... But, again, thank G-d Avraham Fried came out Chazak. Because of that tape, many kids are listening to his more eideleh stuff.
__________________
Is "Expire" the opposite of "Inspire"? Does that mean that if you're not inspired, you're dead?
Lubamessimaniac is offline  
Unread 02-24-2002, 11:44 PM   #72
ChachChach
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 962
i dont understand why the toichen has anything to do with it. nonjewish music is nonjewish music. or even if it stands for something. you can say that all of the opera music stands for something too-a love of nature, an appreciation of a beatiful day (i'm not talking about the love sonnets or suchlike), but those wouldnt be considered permissible.

dont get me wrong-i'm just trying to understand this whole concept. please dont think i'm attacking you
__________________
Siz doch altz hevel havalim-Ein od milvado!

Down with politics!
ChachChach is offline  
Unread 02-25-2002, 12:38 AM   #73
BLewbavitch
Silver Member
 
BLewbavitch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 725
BH

Let's examine the Anthem:

A composer writes a song, a high official in the new goverment (which happned to have been Jewish) likes this song and presents it to the people, the people like it, they adapt it as their National Anthem.

<<i dont understand why the toichen has anything to do with it. nonjewish music is nonjewish music>>

Now, let's discuss non-Jewish music, why is it so bad? Because it's "Metamtem haLev vehaMoach" - it's Klippah, (there are stories of Holy people that got Kelos Hanefesh from non-Jewish music - I recall one, if you want to hear it, let me know!) it is all about the Toichen! (At least 95% of the reason).

Now, let's discuss Jewish music. What makes it Jewish?

1) The singer?
2) The tune? Or..
3) The words?

Let's look at a different scenario: What happens if a non-Jew were to sing a Niggun? Would that be okay to listen to?

If yes, than it for sure has to do with the Toichen. And if no, than what is the problem?

1) The singer, Look above
2) If itís the tune, than itís the Toichen, because if it is a non-Jewish tune you wouldnít sing it, but an original tune (i.e. one with no toichen behind it,) you would sing Ė so itís the Toichen behind the tune,
3) The words, well, this one is self-explanatory.
As for ďattackingĒ me, donít worry about it - be happy! Itís Adar, Purim!

The bottom line is, it has plenty to do with the tune.
__________________
All the best,

BLewbavitch

:)"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life.":)

Last edited by BLewbavitch; 02-25-2002 at 02:33 AM.
BLewbavitch is offline  
Unread 02-25-2002, 11:36 PM   #74
Lubamessimaniac
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 505
BLew, I always want to hear stories! PLEASE post it - I'd love to hear that one!

Second - my father says that he thinks that Asher Bara by the Piamentas was takeh taken and can now be considered even Jewish lefee the toichen. His proof? Look what happens at any wedding! Nowadays, there's hardly a wedding that they DON'T play that song, and when people hear it, EVERYONE's dancing. This is obviously just an opinion, so you can take it or leave it - I just think that there's something behind that logic. It was completely integrated into the system. Look at the song "Shir Shel Shalom" by MBD (on "Neshomo Soul") - it's a goyishe song (I heard the original at Kapporois - of all places!) but no one really ever accepted it. It never became a song which people remember - I think because it takeh has no toichen. Mah Sheain kayn Asher Bara - it's a classic already. It's remained a hit for 14 years since it came out on Mostly Horas!

(I have a feeling I'm gonna get attacked for that... :p )
__________________
Is "Expire" the opposite of "Inspire"? Does that mean that if you're not inspired, you're dead?
Lubamessimaniac is offline  
Unread 02-26-2002, 12:58 AM   #75
BLewbavitch
Silver Member
 
BLewbavitch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 725
BH

I'm preparing a Chassidic approach to music, this will take a few days (due to Purim and research).
__________________
All the best,

BLewbavitch

:)"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life.":)
BLewbavitch is offline  
Closed Thread

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Lithuania: The Struggle Continues RebLazer The World of Lubavitch 17 05-04-2005 06:30 PM
Good reviews! mjw Current 1 08-25-2004 12:36 AM
Jewish Music Radio Station Jude Bulletin Board 7 03-08-2004 02:16 PM
Help encourage more Jewish babies! Yankel Nosson Bulletin Board 23 07-14-2003 04:43 PM
Jewish music for secular kids CheBraccia Shlichus 30 04-01-2002 11:10 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:17 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2001 - 2016 ChabadTalk.com