Jewish Music

[Shliachwannabe]

We all know that music is an expression of the soul. It touches the Ruach part. (Kuntrus U'maayan) Whether it enters the Ruach of Nefsh Elokis or Bahamis is what I think the discussion is all about. So I pose the following question: If a person does an act of tzedokah solely for personal gain, is he feeding his Neshama or his ego? Both. There are definitely thoughts, speech, or actions that we do, that combine both the Nefesh Elokis and Bahamis. So one that listens to a chassidishe niggun with the attitude of allowing the song to penetrate his G-dly soul so that he can serve Hashem better, is connecting thru the niggun only towards "tzad Hakedusha". If there are other factors; the composer of the Jewish song; the composer of the lyrics; or the manner in which you're listening to it that is not 100% pure,then obviously you're going to incorporate the Animal Soul as well.

[ChachChach]

<<A Jewish song, means a song with Jewish words, either from the Torah or ideas which are positive for religious people (self improvement).

A Jew singing a song that is not to the Jewish way of life would not be considered a Jewish song.

Someone who truely want's to listen to non-Jewish music, will always find an excuse to do so...>>



its not that simple. what makes music jewish? if its composed by a jew? well, what if a friend of mine composed a song that doesnt have any jewish theme, but its not garbarge-its in the "gray" area. what if its a jewish theme, but it was composed by a goy? i think it all bottles down to how sensitive you are.

and sorry if you think these are excuses. they arent. but i'll ignore the pointed remark.

[Bittul]

Was the friend of yours influenced by non-Jewish composers? Then that music will have the same effect, because it will include strains of non-Jewishly composed music.

[ChachChach]

see thats the problem with music....anything influenced by goyishe music would be considered not 100%....and i think that most of the music on the market would be considered "influenced"

[Shliachwannabe]

You know what ChachChach, I think you're right. It's tough to be a real chassid, isn't it?

[ChachChach]

yeah, it certainly is

so basically....the only safe music is niggunim...but that's so hard! forget about oif simchas...what about music like avraham fried, shlomie dachs etc...if you want to stay pure, you wouldnt be able to listen to any of those...

[Lubamessimaniac]

OK - here's one for everyone on the boards (or is to "boreds"?):

What exactly defines Jewish Music? What is the MAIN difference between Jewish and non-Jewish music? Where does it all fit in the realms of Chassidishkeit?

Personally, I have a lot to say on this one, but I'm going to present it bit by bit so that people have the chance to attack or agree with each particular point.

1. First out, there's a Halocho in Shulchan Oruch that one is not allowed to listen to music (al hayayin) after the destruction of the Beis Hamikdosh. What exactly does "al hayayin" mean? Well, it seems to be saying the type of music one would hear in a bar. I think (and this a personal, NON-rabbinic standpoint) that this may mean that the type of music one is allowed to listen to changes according to the standard of the goyish world.

It seems that ever since Chassidus has taken over the world (note that frum music is always called "Chassidic", even if it's sung by Shloimie Dachs, who is by no way a Chossid), the entire idea of music became reinstituted as a major part of Jewish life. (That included stealing goyish songs which had been popular at the time.) When I pointed this out to Rabbi Y. Y. Wilschansky, he said that he thinks that the reason why Rabbonim are lenient in regards to most hanhogois which have to do with mourning for the Beis Hamikdosh, is because we are in the pre-Moshiach era, in which we will eventually see the rebuilding of the Beis Hamikdosh. Therefore, the stress is more on simcha and positive inyonim. (This is NOT to say that the destruction of the Beis Hamikdosh has ch"v no application to us! It's just explaining why things have developed the way they have.)

However, beyond that, there is a certain grubbkeit (coarseness) one feels with goyish songs. That grubbkeit applies to certain Jewish songs, as well. While I am a Piamenta fan, I think the song "Od Yishoma" on their album "The Way You Like It" has a bit of a grubb flavor to it.

So: Is it, stick with good ol' Nichoach, or Avremel is cool, or maybe we can chill with the Piamentas, or even Oif Simchas can rock a Chassidic house? Let's hear what you have to say!

[Jude]

"al ha'yayin" - a seuda where wine is served?

[PeaceInIsrael]

music has an amazing allure and power.
there are many people who are practically in love with music.

i believe if "jewish music" was not around, people would look for it elsewhere. i think shlomele, mbd and a fried did the frum world a great service.

of course there are nigunim which nothing can be compared to.
but if we dont counter balance the goyishe music even just a little bit, (i.e. if the only jewish music availible was nigunim)
people wouldnt be satisified.

no matter how much we try, we are ultimatly influenced by the world around us. to ignore the strong temptation of listening to non jewish music, is to bury your head in the sand.

granted most the "jewish music" out there aint very jewish but for someone who loves music and needs it, it sure beats listening to other the raw stuff.

[BLewbavitch]

BH

I have to agree with PeaceInIsrael on this one (for a change - I think it's the first time I agree with someone in writing).

I have a lot to say on this matter, but I'll wait for you -Lubamessimaniac - to present it and I will add (disagree/agree - yes I wrote disagree first for a reason ) to that.

[Lubamessimaniac]

Awright - 1. I apologize - I never ssaw this forum before, so I started the same idea in another forum. I'll cut and paste that later, and hopefully the mods will have it moderated.

2. Personally - everyone in the music scene gets stuck to the grub stuff, because that's what people want. On the other hand, kudos to Avraham Fried, because along with every popular tape he puts out he releases a niggunim tape, Yom Tov Ehrlich, etc. Now Hupp Kozak is one of the most popular wedding dance tunes! (BTW, he's coming out with another Lubavitcher niggunim tape around Lag Baomer.) Let me tell you, tho, being a dorm counselor with five teenage fry boys was made a lot easier with Piamenta and Avremel. They obviously liked Oif Simchas, but I told them that it doesn't have a Jewish taste, and therefore I don't appreciate it. Since it is more to their taste, I let them listen to it, bt only when I was not around. At least that way they understod that there is the idea of grub and not-so-grub.

SO - what's the difference between Jewish and non-Jewish? 1. The Frierdiker Rebbe says that when you listen to music, you connect to the composer's etzem. 2. However, it seems that CERTAIN people have the ability to steal non-Jewish songs. I know that Avi Piamenta wrote to the Rebbe about it, and he got a LONG answer. I don't know what the answer said; I just know that they have at least one stolen song on every tape!

Besides that difference, tho - tachlis - certain singers can't seem to match the word of their songs to the toichen of the music! As Jude said before, listen to the original London songs for songs that have toichen. But the Mendy Wald, Shloimie Dachs, Yisroel Williger, Yeedl, Avremy Flamm, Yaakov Shweky, etc. can't manage to do it! (Of course, that's my opinion.)

Abie Rotenberg said it best - "A Jewish song of any kind, is only precious if and when, it brings us closer to Hashem!"

[Lubamessimaniac]

This should be moved to the other music thread in "General"

[mendelp]

the rebbe (Likutei Sichos 24 p 429 http://www.otzar770.com/library/disp...frashBookNav=Y) in reply to a question of putting words of pesukim to secular songs says that there should be a Hora'ah (Ruling?) from a Rov of anash who is a moreh hora'ah and an askon. Any doubt should be ruled stringently.

[BLewbavitch]

Lubamessimaniac, I second (and third) your comment about Mendy Wald, Shloimie Dachs, Yisroel Williger, Yeedl, Avremy Flamm, Yaakov Shweky, etc. can't manage to do it! I think they make music sound ridiculous (did I say music?).

[bored770]

I look up to those who are on the level that they only listen to nigunim, but is not so easy, I have friend who's Father only let him listen to chassidic nigunim, and if he was 'caught' listening to anything else he was in big trouble, now he has rebeled and listens to non Jewish music, and could not care less what his father says, because he barely talks to him! There is definatly a need to have jewish music other than niggunim, for people who would otherwise be listening to non Jewish music!

[Jude]

about an earlier post which said: it's tough being a Chassid - I'm certainly not going to say it's easy, however, the attitude of es iz shver tzu zein a Yid (it's hard to be a Jew) which was said with a sigh by early immigrants to America, produced an assimilated generation of Jews. Why? Because we want to live an easy life! I think it's said over in the name of R' Moshe Feinstein, that it was that line that ruined the next generation.

So, we're far better off focusing on "ashreinu ma tov chelkeinu" (fortunate are we, and how good is our lot)!

about the father who insisted on niggunim and the child who rebelled, certainly you realize that it wasn't the father's insistence on niggunim that did it, but their entire relationship was flawed ...

this Shabbos being parshas Teruma, we sang the old Bilvavi Mishkan Evneh (I will build a mishkan in my heart, words from Sefer Chareidim, tune by Shmuel Brazil) song. Now THAT'S a song with taam. It's from the old Ohr Chadash record. Other old, terrific stuff was Negina records. The one I had included : Ma tovu, Shiru lo shir chadash, V'yiten lecha .. etc. The entire record was excellent. They just don't make these anymore, sad to say, but fortunately many of these old records are now available on tape.

[Shliachwannabe]

Jude, I understand your point of "es iz shver tzu zein a Yid"(it's hard to be a Jew) bringing about assimilation to the Jews in America. However today, don't you think that part of the assimmilation is because Jews are taking the easy way out, and they need to realize that being Jews does not necessarily mean having fun and making life easier, but rather it's a soul connection and we practice yiddishkeit even if it's hard. I'll give you one example - To convince someone today to send their children to a Jewish Day School requires enormous mesiras nefesh due to the astronomical tuition fees, and for many Jews - sending their children there, will cause them tremendous financial grief. I would normally respond, "who says it's gonna be easy - It's the right thing to do, without Jewish education...every mitzvah can bring Moshiach...". Am I saying something wrong?

[Jude]

Shliachwannabe: I've wanted to start this thread for a while now, and you've given me my opening. Look for a thread entitled Open Your Eyes, and I'll answer you there.

[Jac]

Bored770, I agree with you. I think that it's great that there exists wholesome Jewish music, and there's no need to knock that in favor of listening to niggunim only. Niggunim are absolutely beautiful, but we have to realize that most people love and appreciate other music too--as long as it is Jewish music, I think that that is more than fine. If a particular singer doesn't suit your taste, that's fine, but that doesn't mean it's not good for those that do like it.

Since specific singers are being mentioned, I'm wondering what the consensus on the new band "Chevra" is. They just had a concert in Brooklyn College last night, so it is brought to mind just now. Some say that it sounds suspiciously like certain non-Jewish bands, but perhaps it is just the mindset, the songs are Jewish and composed tunes. Also, it uses words from Kaddish (Yehay Sheloma Rabba) and completely turns it into a wild song. What do you all think?

[ChachChach]

we get right back to the problem. the problem is, the way to classify music as jewish or not jewish is too broad. take chevra for example. made up by jews, sung by jews, yet ppl will call it not jewish music...so how would you define jewish music? after a certain point, is it opinion, or is there a set of rules out there that identify what is jewish and what isnt?

[Jude]

it reminds me of the halacha about when you have a question about a letter in a sefer Torah, that in certain instances you ask a child what the letter is

here too, a child (like the one I mentioned earlier) who is raised on chasidic niggunim and is familiar with other nice Jewish songs too, can be quite honest with you and will tell you when something sounds goyish or not. We who want to listen to the other stuff are nogei'a b'davar.

[BLewbavitch]

BH

<<and if he was 'caught' listening to anything else he was in big trouble>>

In my humble view, I think this was a big mistake, and a mistake that is happening everyday. A lot of parents are not facing that there IS a problem with their children, "what MY child?" "No, not my child"... There IS another way to deal with this “problem”; it's called love. [I can't bet on this, but] I think if the father would have "chastised" with love, there would at least be some sort of respect for the father [at least today].
Because the father couldn’t come to terms with this, the child (and the father) suffers today.
Again, this is only in my view.

[Jude]

there is a thread called Chinuch - Home or School in the Discuss Judaism section. This is the Jewish Music thread

[Lubamessimaniac]

Listen, Yehay Shloma Raba is great for those people who need it. We had a fry camp here, and the kids loved the song - they said it reminded them of the Backstreet Boys. So that in itself says that it has a goyishe taam! But, on the other hand, one completely fry kid (non-Jewish father, afilu) said that he wants to start to buy Jewish music CDs. I know, I'm just adding to the general confusion... Sorry!

I think the ikkar question is whether they are doing it leshaim shomayim or not. Moshe Yess, Piamenta, Avraham Fried, and Diaspora all have made it clear in one way or another that the point is to mekarev people in one way or another. Shlock Rock and Variations work in the same way. But then we have some shmendriks out there who put out a song just because it sounds sorta good and has a fast tempo, and then they want the general frum buyer to feed it to their kids...

Be a conscientous buyer! Will I be able to use this stuff for something good? Or will it just sit in my mind like mold? I DO know, however, that goyishe music fargrebs the mind. NOW the question arises (and maybe this will lead us to the answer) what is GOYISHE music - which type of music is ossur?

[ChachChach]

lol, i think that's the question that we've been trying to figure out the whole time...what makes music goyish or jewish.

the ideal situation would be one where ppl only listen to niggunim. but some ppl (yep, myself included) dont feel that we've reached that level yet. i know some ppl who have just stopped listening to non jewish music...for them, its a step up...if you would tell them that they should only listen to nigunim, they would give up and go back to the garbage.

for myself, i find nigunim beatiful, but sometimes, you need something beaty and fast. nigunim are more relaxing and calming-you cant exactly have a workout to the beinoni nigun.