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Unread 07-22-2012, 11:41 PM   #1
noahidelaws
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Miriam's language

So my son asked me, ka"h: "How could Miriam have said to Amram, 'Your decree is worse than Pharaoh's!' 1. It's hepech kibbud av; 2. it's hepech hakovod for the godol hador. Shouldn't she have worded her taynah more respectfully?" Does anyone have any answer?
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Unread 07-23-2012, 11:20 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
So my son asked me, ka"h: "How could Miriam have said to Amram, 'Your decree is worse than Pharaoh's!' 1. It's hepech kibbud av; 2. it's hepech hakovod for the godol hador. Shouldn't she have worded her taynah more respectfully?" Does anyone have any answer?
Possible answers:

1. Miriam was still a child and, as great as she was, sometimes children misspeak.

2. Who says the quote from the Midrash is a verbatim quote. Perhaps it's made "to the point" for the sake of brevity. Perhaps her answer was, in fact, more respectful.

3. She saw that radical action was necessary to save K'lal Yisroel, and therefore, acted radically.

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Unread 07-24-2012, 12:02 AM   #3
emes m'eretz
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Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
It's hepech kibbud av
.why?
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Unread 07-24-2012, 11:08 PM   #4
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Well, what I meant was: Isn't the respectful way to rebuke your parent, as ruled in Shulchan Aruch, to express it mildly and eideleheit, in the form of a question, "Isn't it written kach vekach..." or the like. Miriam's rebuke was quite forceful, to say the least, and apparently not consistent with the above criterion.
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Unread 07-25-2012, 07:49 AM   #5
Torah613
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Looking at the words, I don't see the terrible "disrespect". I guess it depends how one "sings" it.
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Unread 07-25-2012, 11:29 AM   #6
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You don't? It's certainly not worded in the tone of a question--and that's not just a matter of intonation, al derech di mayseh vegen "tateh, shik gelt." (Ude'asinon lehochi, what's the origin of that mayseh?).
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Unread 07-26-2012, 11:37 AM   #7
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What's more, on point 2 in my first post, replace "Pharaoh" with "H-itler" and "Amram" with "the Rebbe," and see if you don't think that sounds extremely harsh.

Last edited by noahidelaws; 07-26-2012 at 05:54 PM.
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Unread 07-26-2012, 04:37 PM   #8
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How would you have phrased the same points?
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Unread 08-29-2012, 11:18 PM   #9
emes m'eretz
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Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
Well, what I meant was: Isn't the respectful way to rebuke your parent, as ruled in Shulchan Aruch, to express it mildly and eideleheit, in the form of a question, "Isn't it written kach vekach..." or the like.
in shulchan aruch yoreh deah 240,11 it says that if someone saw his father doing something against the torah, he shouldn't tell him,"you transgressed the words of the torah," rather he should tell him, "father, it is written in the torah this and this," as if he is asking him...

so it doesn't need to be in the form of a question. just the opposite, the shulchan aruch writes the proper approach in the form of a statement, but in a way that is "as if" he is asking him.

and (like torah613 wrote) it depends on the tone.

so when miryam said,"your decree is worse than paroh's," when this phrase is said in a respectful tone, it can easily be understood as a form of questioning and respectful debate.
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Unread 08-30-2012, 07:37 PM   #10
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Sorry, but WADR, I think what you're saying is super-dochek. To me there is a world of difference between saying "your behavior is even worse than H-tler's," which kind of requires an exclamation mark, and maybe even italics, and is a kind of accusation that would make most of us offended, extremely defensive, and outraged, and a gentle "I'd like to call your attention to the fact that in Torah it's written kach vekach."

Last edited by noahidelaws; 08-30-2012 at 10:54 PM.
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Unread 08-30-2012, 09:46 PM   #11
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Personally, I like Wolf's answers. Another possibility: Miriam uttered her reproach be'derech nevuah -- as a prophetic rebuke, which also dovetails with Wolf's third mehalech (approach).
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Unread 08-30-2012, 10:56 PM   #12
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Personally, I like Wolf's answers. Another possibility: Miriam uttered her reproach be'derech nevuah -- as a prophetic rebuke, which also dovetails with Wolf's third mehalech (approach).
Wolf's 3rd answer makes the most sense to me, too.
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Unread 08-31-2012, 12:49 PM   #13
emes m'eretz
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Sorry, but WADR, I think what you're saying is super-dochek.
i disagree (humbly and gently, of course)
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