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Unread 12-24-2001, 12:28 PM   #1
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'Chitzonius'

The Moderator of frumteen main complaint is that Lubavitcher Chassidim follow their Rebbe's in a "monkey like immitation" (Chitzonius).

I just wanted to point out that on Chassidus via the telephone i just heard a Sicha in which the Rebbe was visibly upset by the fact that people looked at him during Davening etc. and that people took pitures of him during Davening etc. and the Rebbe even threatend that if he is left with no option he may just start Davening in his room! The Rebbe said all this in connection with the birthday of the Rebbe Maharash who allways demanded Pnimius not Chitzonius.

This Just goes on to prove how the Rebbe was so much against immitating something if it is against Halacha and if it has no basis, and obviously all of the 'immitations' which Lubavitch does indeed do is based on Torah and Halacha.

It is an interesting Sicha to listen to on Chassidus on the telephone. It is in the Yiddish section in the 'Kol Rabbeinu' option.
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Unread 12-24-2001, 12:28 PM   #2
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whats wrong with copying the chitzoniyus of the rebbe? alot of things most of us do is chitzonius. the chitzoniyus is supposed to lead to pnimiyus. how are we supposed to make something pnimiyus if we dont first start doing it chitzoniyus.
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Unread 12-24-2001, 12:30 PM   #3
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There was some comment the Rebbe made to someone in this respect. I think it was concerning making three points in the hat. Does anyone know this story?
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Unread 12-24-2001, 12:30 PM   #4
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qwert,
What do you mean that a lot of things we do are Chitzonius?

Also not everything that is Chitzonius will eventually lead to Pnimius, for example: that which the Rebbe was upset about people looking at him during Davening and copying him etc.

That Chitzonius brings to Pnimius is not so simple.
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Unread 12-24-2001, 12:31 PM   #5
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A person can remain a chitzon indefinitely. It's not automatic, that a person changes into a pnimi. I think that changing from a chitzon to a pnimi only "works" if you're consciously attempting to do so.
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Unread 12-24-2001, 12:31 PM   #6
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Uh - Jude?! A chitzon is someone who spends too much time professing to be a pnimi! To become a pnimi, one has to completely remove all thoughts of what he is - chassidish, not chassidish, pnimi, a chitzon, stupid, etc. and just concentrate on what has to be done at the moment. Don't concentrate on titles!

But, you have a point that it doesn't come auto - You have to work on it.
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Unread 12-24-2001, 12:31 PM   #7
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<<To become a pnimi, one has to completely remove all thoughts of what he is - chassidish, not chassidish, pnimi, a chitzon, stupid, etc. and just concentrate on what has to be done at the moment.>>

is that all that is meant by 'chabad munt pnimiyus'? there must be something more to it!
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Unread 12-24-2001, 12:31 PM   #8
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what do you mean isnt there that saying that something that you do with out kavana will lead you to do it with kavana? or hamaaseh hu haikar?

the main thing is to do it first. if we wait till we become pnimiyus before we start doing thingswho knows how long we'll have to wait. . .
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Unread 12-24-2001, 12:32 PM   #9
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When talking about doing a Mitzvah then doing is the main thing, but then you have things like copying the Rebbe in the way he Daven's etc. that will lead you to nothing.

It all depends what and how you are doing it.
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Unread 12-24-2001, 12:32 PM   #10
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"Is that all"? I think that's pretty darn much! Try not to think what others think about yourself for alittle bit... It ain't too easy! But, that's the challenge!

There are other things like the Frierdiker Rebbe says, "A pnimi is someone who lives with what he's doing at the moment", but I think that that is oincluded in what I said before. I just changed the loshoin to something that I know applies to me in particular, and i think other people can relate to as well.
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Unread 12-24-2001, 12:32 PM   #11
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i think some ppl were so concerned about copying what the rebbe did, that they lost sight of the purpose...hence, ppl who go around trying to wear the same brand that the rebbe wore, or shukle the same way the rebbe did, but dont spend time being nice to the person who sits next to them in class...................................di lameivin
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Unread 12-24-2001, 12:38 PM   #12
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Such a person is called a chitzoin, because s/he is only concerned with what other people see imeediately. A pnimi is more concerned with what is happening right now; how to deal with what's happening with himself and with others at this particular moment - s/he wants to use out every second usefully for everyone.
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Unread 12-26-2001, 07:37 PM   #13
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i have something to add that sorta changed my view of this matter. it was brought to my attention that recently, in sefer hamitzvos, there was a mitzvah that says you should hang around chachamim as much as possible, to sit with them etc etc, in order to basically learn from them.. (sefer hamitzvos, shiur ches, mitzvah shishis). so basically, everyone who's wondering what's up with ppl who spend so much time imitating their rebbe-they do have a source, and there is a point
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Unread 01-15-2002, 07:06 PM   #14
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what does it mean to be a pnimi?

Some people were watching an old Chabad telethon, and a comment was made contrasting R' Cunin with the popular singing star. The p.s.s. was singing with what looked like obvious concentration and feeling, kvetching his forehead, eyes closed, you know. R' Cunin was almost expressionless. The comment was: singing with exaggerated body language is "chitzoniyusdik". And we all know "Chasssidus mont pnimiyus "

I'd like this thread to discuss what pnimiyus is, examples of it, stories that illustrate it. Request: when quoting sources, please quote WHAT the source SAYS, and not JUST the source, because a lot of us are not going to bother looking it up, or may not be able to. It's much better when we can actually read it on the spot.
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Unread 01-28-2002, 02:14 PM   #15
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3 things

1) This p.s.s. (i'm %99 certain of who it is) is a emeser pnimi, and is a very special man

---------------------

2)
is that all that is meant by 'chabad munt pnimiyus'? there must be something more to it!

Ah! that's chitonius, - making things complex, vechulu, - making sure you have all the tnu'os in place, and the hat should have a pinch, that the right side should be exactly 1 inch higher than the left....

Pnimi isn't thinking about z"a, and keser, and the ten sfiros, and all the rokios, and other stuff, - that's chitzonius melubash in pnimius (the point of chassidus, is how high our neshomos are, how low are gufim are, and how we are nothing... vechulu - the rest is just explanation

Pnimius: -
Alef) Bittul - es is gornisht faran, chutz fun der rebbe un hashem

Beis) Ahava - "ich hob em lib"

Gimmel) Yirah - (Yirah Ila'ah) - a"d bittul

and of course - chaba"d -
a proper combination of the above mentioned are a automatic recipee for 'pnimius' - which will very soon manifest itself into the chitzoniyus
ok, here is where 'frumteen's point comes in (which is explained in detail in the thread "Publiczing the rebbe as moshiach")

Although everyone pnimius and chitzoniyus is Basically the same,
everyone has to have their own personal avodah to become a pnimi, - their own special derech, just like every single group has their own nusach of tefilah, and although they are all good, one can't daven the other's nusach (with the exception of our nusach)

Same thing, in someone's avodah, especially that everyone is his own group, or at least his own 'city' - [let's give a practical example
in kabul, you wouldn't bring along scuba divers, and to destroy enemy submarines, you wouldn't bring pilots [providing they can't be destroyed using bombs droped from a plane]

nu, kumt di shaaloh, "he's a expert", but in what is he a expert in, takeh if you were going deep see diving, nu, you would definately take a scuba diver, but that isn't what you NEEED, and sometimes, will result in the opposite]

your friends avodah may not be good for you, and your avodah may not be good for your friend, due to the different mekoros of neshmos, and other factors - there are different types of general avodah, mentioned in tanya, and in chassidus b'chlal,

we shouldn't follow the rebbe chitzoniyus, and even the rebbes avodah, if that is what we are supposed to do, why did the rebbe tell it to us for 42 years, the rebbe could have just said "watch me" - the rebbe wanted us only to do what he told us to do, be kabolas ol'niks, - do what we are told,

if not, we must all have three corners on our hats, wear a kapote, a tie, a long shirt, we must also all daven from a torah ohr siddur ... vechulu....

- not everyones avodah, (and especially the rebbe's - being that he is a tzadik, and was born with the neshomo of a tzadik, and needs the avodah of a tzadik, whereas we all need the avodah of a beinuni,) is for us,

we are davaka not supposed to copy, not copy and 'also be a pnimi'
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Unread 01-28-2002, 04:15 PM   #16
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On one hand, the Rebbe did say many times that people should not look at what he is doing etc., and asked people who took pictures if they said Chitas etc. On the other hand, the Rebbe himself wrote in Reshimos and other places Hanhagos of both Davening and other Mitzvos that meant the Rebbe or the Frierdike Rebbe watched to see those Hanhagos.

A possible differentiation could be, that a Pnimi may watch someone else, for example the Rebbe to see certain Hanhagos, but it would not be noticeable to others. In other words, he would not be looking at the Rebbe so that others would notice that he was looking at the Rebbe, and preach a Chassidus of looking at the Rebbe.

I just wish that those "Chitzons" would still be able to watch the Rebbe Davening! One can even be a Chitzon B'Pnimiyus! Which would mean, he will be a Chitzon disregarding what anyone else may think!

I DON'T think a Pnimi necessarily means someone who is a hermit, eingekvetsht, etc. One may even fufill one's own pleasure with a Pnimiyus. The most cheerful person may have spent tearful hours over a Tehillim or Davening.

There's an interesting story about R' Zushe Partizan (Vilimofsky), when the Rebbe sent the Bochurim Shluchim to Eretz Yisroel in 5716, he was their guide. They decided that he never Davened! Because they saw him wake up, go to Mikvah etc, and then take them out, and they never saw him Daven! Until I think one of his children said, that he would get up extremely early, Daven, and then lie down again. THEN he would get up again, go to Mikvah, and learn Chassidus...
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Unread 02-12-2002, 03:42 PM   #17
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I heard a nice story about the Satmar Rebbe. A badchan at a simcha imitated the Satmar Rebbe's davening. The Rebbe looked upset, and so the badchan went over to apologize, sorry he had stepped over the line of propriety.

The Rebbe said, no, it wasn't you. I just realized that just as you imitated me, I imitate myself! If my davening today is no better than yesterday, than I'm just going through the motions!
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Unread 02-12-2002, 05:55 PM   #18
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<<I heard a nice story about the Satmar Rebbe.>>

Jude, Is this the present Satmerer or the previous one?
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Unread 02-12-2002, 08:07 PM   #19
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it wasn't specified, but I believe it was R' Yoel, previous Rebbe
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Unread 02-25-2002, 10:20 AM   #20
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okay, thanks to rolly888 I was able to look up the story and get it right! So I edited out the incorrect version and here's how the real story goes (Sefer Ha'Maamarim 5721):

They came to the Alter Rebbe with the complaint that his Chassidim make themselves out to be yirei shomayim and baalei nefesh etc. by being mehader in mitzvos and spending a great deal of time on davening.

The Alter Rebbe replied, quoting the mishna in Pei'ah, that just as someone who pretends (to need tzedaka) etc. doesn't die from old age before becoming like one of them (the poor), the mida tova far surpasses that.

Someone who pretends to be a yirei shomayim and a baal nefesh etc. won't die of old age until he becomes like that (the real thing!). The explanation is that the livushei ha'nefesh (thought, speech, and action) have the power of affecting a change in the nature of the nefesh itself! By doing good deeds through the livushei ha'nefesh, he becomes like one of them, for he changes the mahus (essence?) of his nefesh.

In the sicha of 13 Tamuz 5711, the story is told with some other details:

When the Alter Rebbe first started publicizing Toras Ha'Chassidus in Reisin and Lithuania, people complained about the Chassidim, saying that those who weren't holding by it were acting as though they were shayach to hisbonenus and ahavas Hashem and yiras Hashem, just like they were shayach to avodas ha'Chassidus and limud Toras Ha'Chasidus.

The Alter Rebbe responded: If so, then let the psak in the mishna be fulfilled. The mishna says, "whoever is not lame in one foot and not blind and not lame in both feet, but pretends to be, won't die of old age before he becomes that way." Since they pretend to be Chassidim, and they pretend to have ahavas Hashem and yiras Hashem and hisbonenus and lengthy tefilla, with all the things Chassidus demands, and they're not shayach to these things - may it be fulfilled "he won't die of old age before becoming like that" - that they really become that way.

The Rebbe comments that he did not hear this story from his father-in-law, but it's written in books of Chassidus, and even if the story didn't happen, the lesson to be learned is geshmak!

Last edited by Jude; 01-20-2004 at 05:10 PM.
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Unread 02-25-2002, 02:00 PM   #21
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there's an expression in hebrew "hergel na'ase lo teva shaini" if you do something long enough,eventually it becomes second nature. for sure if a person tries to be sincere, it eventually will affect them.

perhaps if a person does it long enough, even if they arent trying to be sincere, on a superficial level it could affect them. maybe it wont permeate all the way down to their essence, but it most likely will have some effect. it could be that after a cerain point, it up to the person to make it more real, to make it truly a part of them.
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Unread 02-25-2002, 02:05 PM   #22
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somehow I think the "sincere" part is crucial, because otherwise you can spend your life living a lie

practical examples: in davening - shuckling for show, taking a long time when you're really stretching it out to make an impression, putting on a face of concentration - furrowed brow, eyes closed ..
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Unread 02-25-2002, 04:14 PM   #23
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Chitzoniyus (External acts) are not hypocrisy in yiddishkeit. They represent some sort of virtue.There are so many Rabbi Levi Yitzchak of Berditchev stories of how he viewed simple external acts from sinning Jews and translated them as spiritual gestures to Hashem. If someone is acting frum on the outside - that's a level. I wouldn't discourage that behavior. It's a stepping stone. On the opposite end, look at the way Torah differentiates between a sin done "publicly" and "privately".
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Unread 02-26-2002, 06:09 AM   #24
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chitzoniyut

the story about the alter rebbe that your looking for could be found in maamar " lo yikaneif od morecho" in sefer maamorim bilti muga, tof shin chof-chof alef
the maamar in general is very applicable to the subject on hand, and the rebbe's view is very clear that through working on the "chitzoniyus" eventually it effectsthe pnimiyus.
it's interesting to point out that in modern day psychology there are two schools of thought whith opposing opinions on if treatment should be on the cause of any given symptom, or is it enough to work on the problem without going into the cause of the problem, and through rectifying the problem, the source of the problem wil also be fixed.
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Unread 03-05-2002, 07:07 AM   #25
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BS"D My Mashpia told me that one of the traits of a pnimi is that he is focussed on working on HIMSELF and therefore he AUTOMATICALLY doesn't notice, or at least become bothered by the faults of others.

Of course, if he is in a position to correct that person, that is another story - then he must intervene. But otherwise, he should know that if he notices a fault in others, as the Baal Shem Tov says "a person is a mirror" - it is, in fact, a reflection of a fault in himself.

This seems to be a very hard avoido, but according to my Mashpia , the main effort needed is az m'zol LIGN - we should be immersed - in self-improvement, and then that will help also bain odom lachaveiroi - to enable one to focus on others' positive qualities.
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