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Unread 01-06-2011, 10:35 AM   #1
True Seeker
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Reckless Driving In Chabad

I'm sorry to touch this subject but it's something that hurts me very much.
I've noticed in the froom world bechlal and in Lubavitch befrat that there's a high rate of car accidents. In truth, I've heard already too many cases and that's why I decided to create this thread.
Many Lubavitchers drive recklessly and get involved in accidents sometime with terrible consequences. I'm thinking already about five car accidents of beloved people in Chabad that ended up in death of one or more inside the car.
Many were coming from a simcha (weddings, fabrengens).
Come on! Are we kids or what? Don't we know that if you make lechaims you better don't drive? Don't we know that we have to keep our cars in good conditions so they can brake properly? Don't we know that we should sleep before we drive if we don't feel we're awake enough to react?
I THINK THE RABBONIM SHOULD ALREADY MAKE SOME TAKONOS REGARDING THIS ISSUE!
It is not a matter of being into gashmius. The mitzvah is to live, not to die!!
What do you think?
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Unread 01-06-2011, 10:46 AM   #2
chossidnistar
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do you have any statistics to compare rate of accidents?

and yes, I see that there is an inyan to go grom NJ to NY in 30 minutes
o 4 1/2 hours to Montreal, etc
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Unread 01-06-2011, 04:22 PM   #3
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No. I don't have statistics and don't think anyone will ever make a statistical study about this. But to ignore this problem is, in my view, quite irresponsible.
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Unread 01-06-2011, 04:54 PM   #4
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Really, people have this self-bashing tendency, to turn widespread problems into Chabad-specific problems. Please prove that this problem is any more prevalent in Chabad than in any other group before you come here and declare that something is a Chabad-specific problem. And yes, I believe that leaders should warn people about it if they see a neglect, just as when it comes to any other issue.
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Unread 01-06-2011, 09:04 PM   #5
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How many frum yidden are involved in car accidents per year? Don't you think that in the goyish world the situation is far far far worse? We can tell about a thousand accidents in the goyish world while we hear far less tragic accidents in our communities, B'H. Eventhough it's true that recently we read some such tragedies, there are clearly no indications that they are prevalent in our communities, quite the contrary.

BTW, I was told by a fellow chosid that frum living in EY were the worst drivers.
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Unread 01-06-2011, 09:43 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
Really, people have this self-bashing tendency, to turn widespread problems into Chabad-specific problems. Please prove that this problem is any more prevalent in Chabad than in any other group before you come here and declare that something is a Chabad-specific problem. And yes, I believe that leaders should warn people about it if they see a neglect, just as when it comes to any other issue.
I don't really understand what's the chochmoh of getting defensive about this as if my post would be an attack to Chabad. A sensible person would look into it and try to help correcting the problem.

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Originally Posted by mosheh5769 View Post
How many frum yidden are involved in car accidents per year? Don't you think that in the goyish world the situation is far far far worse? We can tell about a thousand accidents in the goyish world while we hear far less tragic accidents in our communities, B'H.

Of course in the goyshe world there're more accidents but who cares!

In my view, that's the whole problem we have nowadays among us. We're so concerned about defending ourselves and winning an argument that we fail in solving issues that affect our communities terribly.
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Unread 01-06-2011, 10:17 PM   #7
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Quote:
I don't really understand what's the chochmoh of getting defensive about this as if my post would be an attack to Chabad. A sensible person would look into it and try to help correcting the problem.
Maybe you can't read. I said, by all means, correct the problem, but don't paint it unfairly as a Chabad-specific problem without proof.
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Unread 01-06-2011, 11:55 PM   #8
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Maybe you can't read. I said, by all means, correct the problem, but don't paint it unfairly as a Chabad-specific problem without proof.
First off, I'd like to suggest respect in this forum. There's no need to be rude.

Now, what kind of proof do you need? Statistical proof? For what purpose? You don't believe my statement on my first post? Well, I'd really wish to be wrong but I've known too many cases already. In the US, Europe and in EY. All Lubavitchers.

Do you want me to write a list of names? I'm not going to do that.

Finally, I'm not trying to paint it as a Chabad-specific problem. It just happens that Chabad is the group I know the best. But again, what's the difference? If there's an issue, there's an issue. Period.
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Unread 01-07-2011, 12:06 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Seeker View Post
I've noticed in the froom world bechlal and in Lubavitch befrat that there's a high rate of car accidents. In truth, I've heard already too many cases and that's why I decided to create this thread.
I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but why do you think this is a uniquely Jewish of Chabad issue?
Quote:
Many Lubavitchers drive recklessly and get involved in accidents sometime with terrible consequences. I'm thinking already about five car accidents of beloved people in Chabad that ended up in death of one or more inside the car.
Why do you think that these 5 accidents were caused by recklessness on the part of Lubavitchers?
Quote:
Come on! Are we kids or what? Don't we know that if you make lechaims you better don't drive? Don't we know that we have to keep our cars in good conditions so they can brake properly? Don't we know that we should sleep before we drive if we don't feel we're awake enough to react?
Why do you think that these issues are caused by drinking and driving? Is there evidence of that?
Quote:
I THINK THE RABBONIM SHOULD ALREADY MAKE SOME TAKONOS REGARDING THIS ISSUE!
It is not a matter of being into gashmius. The mitzvah is to live, not to die!!
What do you think?
What kind of takonos? Lubavitchers must drive safely and obey all traffic laws? Rabbonim shouldn't have to make such stupid takanos.
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Unread 01-07-2011, 12:08 AM   #10
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True Seeker: I'm glad you're not trying to paint it as a Chabad-specific problem; that is how your original post came across to me. I'm sorry for not wording my post more politely.
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Unread 01-07-2011, 12:44 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mosheh5769 View Post
How many frum yidden are involved in car accidents per year? Don't you think that in the goyish world the situation is far far far worse? We can tell about a thousand accidents in the goyish world while we hear far less tragic accidents in our communities, B'H.
More doesn't mean much. Percentage does.
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Unread 01-07-2011, 12:55 AM   #12
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I see in many bochurim they have to much bitachon and drive very fast,
but not alcohol issue
it's a bochrim inyan to fly, BH many accidents are not tragic
it's the age
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Unread 01-07-2011, 01:07 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Meshulam View Post
What kind of takonos? Lubavitchers must drive safely and obey all traffic laws? Rabbonim shouldn't have to make such stupid takanos.
You may be right. Perhaps an idea would be to educate about these issue?
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Unread 01-07-2011, 09:47 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by True Seeker View Post
Now, what kind of proof do you need? Statistical proof? For what purpose? You don't believe my statement on my first post? Well, I'd really wish to be wrong but I've known too many cases already. In the US, Europe and in EY. All Lubavitchers.

Do you want me to write a list of names? I'm not going to do that.

Finally, I'm not trying to paint it as a Chabad-specific problem. It just happens that Chabad is the group I know the best. But again, what's the difference? If there's an issue, there's an issue. Period.
The reason why Chabadnikim seem more involved in such tragic accidents is because Chabadnikim use the media (mostly the Internet). You will rarely hear about accidents involving Satmar Chassidim or Neturei Karta because they rarely use the media and keep what happen in their communities among themselves. Look at the Internet and you will see that most of the the time there is an engagment, a wedding or a simcha...they are all Lubavitcher. Does it mean that other frum yidden celebrate less often than us? Not at all, it's just that, we, Lubavitchers, use the media for every thing (to announce an engagement, a wedding, a simcha, a tragic accident, a levaya, etc.). In short, we are communicant.

But it doesn't mean that we are more involved than any other frum yidden in those (happy or tragic) occurrences. We don't know what happen in the more closed communities (for instence, the levaya of Rabbi Holzberg was broadcast live on the Internet and attended by officials, it wasn't the case for the Satmarer who lost his life in the tragedy of Mumbai. So we tend to forget that non Lubavitchers have also lost their lives because we usually focus on our community and Rabbi Gaby and Rivky Holzberg, may G-d avenge their blood)
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Unread 01-07-2011, 09:59 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Seeker View Post
Many were coming from a simcha (weddings, fabrengens).

Come on! Are we kids or what? Don't we know that if you make lechaims you better don't drive? Don't we know that we have to keep our cars in good conditions so they can brake properly? Don't we know that we should sleep before we drive if we don't feel we're awake enough to react?
There are many reasons that can explain a car accident, and the fact that they were coming from a simcha does not mean that they were drunk (maybe they didn't even drank anything other than water or an orange juice, or just one little glass of mashke) or tired, and so on.

This could have happen because of badly lit roads, roads in poor condition, a cat who passes the car, a pedestrian crossing when and where he couldn't cross, another driver who was not driving safely, etc...

Once we were coming from a simcha, we didn't drink more than a little glass of mashke, we were not tired, but we had an accident. And do you know why it happened? A pigeon had defecated on the windshield of the car, which blinded and disrupted the driver (who was none other than my father) and we ended up in the security fence, without any injuries but shocked, B'H. Since that day, my father often says, "Fortunately, G-d did not create the cows with wings."

All this to tell you that there are several ways to have an accident, and returning from a simcha does not mean anything on the driver's condition.
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Unread 01-07-2011, 10:10 AM   #16
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Today on VIZ:

Quote:
Jerussalem - Israeli Rabbis Take Strong Stand On Road Safety


Jerusalem - Chief Rabbinate Committee members held Monday a meeting on the endless carnage on Israels roads and highways during which they decided that Chief Rabbis Yona Metzger and Shlomo Amar would draft a special prayer which will be recited by local rabbis at locations in their area which have witnessed road accidents.


The committee also decided that committee member Rabbi Yaakov Roza, who serves as the rabbi for the ZAKA organization, would give rabbis updates on accidents within their area. The purpose of the prayer is to raise residents awareness to road safety and includes an appeal to God to put an end to the road accidents plaguing the country.


Another initiative approved by the Rabbinate Committee is the publication of a halachic document on correct driving which addresses issues like driving when tired, driving while texting and using a cellular phone and driving over the speed limit in order to make it home in time for Shabbat.


The document will be formulated by two of the committees members Kiryat Onos Rabbi Ratzon Arusi and Givatayims Rabbi Yosef Gliksberg.
The President of the Chief Rabbinate Committee, Rabbi Yona Metzger, who initiated the discussion said: Road accidents have become a national plague and we must do what ever we can to decrease accident numbers.
Chief Rabbi Shlomo Amar added: The goal is to shock the public. A prayer like this will, without a doubt, leave an impression.
It is known that in EY this is a real issue and serious problem that should certainly be addressed.
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Unread 01-07-2011, 11:04 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by mosheh5769 View Post
The reason why Chabadnikim seem more involved in such tragic accidents is because Chabadnikim use the media (mostly the Internet). You will rarely hear about accidents involving Satmar Chassidim or Neturei Karta because they rarely use the media and keep what happen in their communities among themselves. Look at the Internet and you will see that most of the the time there is an engagment, a wedding or a simcha...they are all Lubavitcher. Does it mean that other frum yidden celebrate less often than us? Not at all, it's just that, we, Lubavitchers, use the media for every thing (to announce an engagement, a wedding, a simcha, a tragic accident, a levaya, etc.). In short, we are communicant.

But it doesn't mean that we are more involved than any other frum yidden in those (happy or tragic) occurrences. We don't know what happen in the more closed communities (for instence, the levaya of Rabbi Holzberg was broadcast live on the Internet and attended by officials, it wasn't the case for the Satmarer who lost his life in the tragedy of Mumbai. So we tend to forget that non Lubavitchers have also lost their lives because we usually focus on our community and Rabbi Gaby and Rivky Holzberg, may G-d avenge their blood)
Any Jew involved in a tragic accident is a terrible thing. As I noted on one of my posts above, Lubavitch is the community I know the best, that is why I'm more sensitive to it. But there should be some awareness action in the US and Canada, and wherever necessary, to teach froom Yiddn to prevent car accidents. There's plenty of know-how and technology available nowadays.
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Unread 01-08-2011, 10:02 PM   #18
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I must say from personal experience, I had the unfortunate zechus at a farbrengen to convince one of the Rabbis that he was too drunk to drive home, and arranged for a Bochur to take him. There is a culture of drinking in Chabad, which is fine, but we must set a clear precedent that one cannot drink and drive.

I also have heard a specific eitza from the Rebbe that when driving at night (while tired), one should stop the car once an hour and walk once around the car to wake up. I've tried this, and it does work, but its not particularly helpful in the rain, nor particularly safe on dark roads.
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Unread 01-08-2011, 11:06 PM   #19
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There's also a culture with speeding and not following the rules. I guess it is considered Chassidish at a certain level...
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Unread 01-09-2011, 09:20 AM   #20
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Oh, please. Don't get rdiculous. It detracts from your point.
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Unread 01-09-2011, 10:14 AM   #21
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There's also a culture with speeding and not following the rules. I guess it is considered Chassidish at a certain level...
So now we all know where you're going and why you think that car accidents is a prevalent issue among chassidim (and particularly Lubavitcher). It comes from your distorted ideas about chassidim.
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Unread 01-09-2011, 11:37 AM   #22
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Oh, please. Don't get rdiculous. It detracts from your point.
Why do you react so fast? What do you think is my point besides trying to help prevent accidents? Of course there must be an issue in the way we are educated! I'm not saying chas v'sholom there's an issue with Chassidus but with the way we apply it to real life problems like the one on this thread.


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Originally Posted by mosheh5769 View Post

So now we all know where you're going and why you think that car accidents is a prevalent issue among chassidim (and particularly Lubavitcher). It comes from your distorted ideas about chassidim.
Do not jump to conclusions so fast. I am only trying to find the root of the problem.

To be careless about Gashmius is a distortion that some Chassidim have about living in a Chassidishe way. I am proposing that that distortion could be a possible cause to the problem.
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Unread 01-09-2011, 11:56 AM   #23
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So now, Chassidim are suicidal people that do not matter about gashmiyus and life...

What else?!
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Unread 01-09-2011, 12:49 PM   #24
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To be careless about Gashmius is a distortion that some Chassidim have about living in a Chassidishe way. I am proposing that that distortion could be a possible cause to the problem.
bal tachshis is a not a chassidishe way
it seems that you are confusing "crazy" with "chassiddishe"
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Unread 01-09-2011, 01:32 PM   #25
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So now, Chassidim are suicidal people that do not matter about gashmiyus and life...
What else?!
Why to take all this in such a personal way? Can't you stop reacting? I am not attacking anyone!

What I have seen is a careless attitude. Not suicidal (G-d forbid)!

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bal tachshis is a not a chassidishe way it seems that you are confusing "crazy" with "chassiddishe"
People I knew that passed away in accidents were not crazy at all. Actually, they were (some of them) the best I have met in Lubavitch (seichel-wise and middos-wise). Again, I'm very disturbed by the amount of these accidents in Lubavitch and I would like to know whether my complaint (carelessness) is at the root of their cause.
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