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Unread 10-14-2002, 09:57 AM   #1
Jude
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Men and Tznius

This topic has been touched on in other threads, but certainly deserves a thread of its own.

Tznius is often associated with girls/women yet many of the laws directly affect men. Religious girls' schools will cover the laws of tznius as they pertain to girls, but where and when are boys to learn the halachos they need to know?

A practical example: a boy becomes bar mitzva. Who teaches him that he is forbidden from saying a bracha while facing erva (that which must be covered by a female)? This comes up all the time, on the bus, at the Shabbos table, etc.

There are things which we take for granted, but in my opinion this is a mistake! From where should boys know the halachos they need to know? Osmosis?

Some topics:

1) habata (casual looking) and histaklus (purposely gazing) at erva
shemiras ha'einayim (guarding one's eyes from seeing anything improper)

People are under the mistaken impression that shemiras ha'einayim is for Chasidic groups other than Chabad. Nothing could be further than the truth!

In Kuntres ha'Avoda by the Rebbe Rashab it says (os beis): "yira (fear) is a must for everyone, and it is the beginning and foundation of avoda...fear of sin is fear of doing anything which opposes G-d's will, and not necesarily in outright sin, but regarding his senses: to close his eyes so as not to see evil, and close his ears not to hear evil, so that his sense of sight is not open to see everything in front of him, and certainly not in forbidden looking and gazing, for in reality, looking and all the more so, gazing, is the cause of all evil, and is what leads to utter evil r'l, as it says ... the eye sees and the heart desires, and whoever gazes etc. will ultimately sin.
And as is known, the main pleasure is in the faculty of vision, and a blind person has no pleasure in anything ...
... whoever cares about his soul, not to lead it to impurity, will guard his sense of sight. And if it's hard for him, he should fortify himself with all his strength and know that this literally affects his soul, and that if he does not guard himself in this, all his avoda is as naught and he won't achieve anything in his efforts and in his avoda, on the contrary, he'll descend way down ...
... the difficulty in this is only at first when he has to force himself and overcome his nature and desire, but with time he'll get used to it ..."

2) what to do when on mivtzaim etc. and faced with an improperly clad female, how to conduct oneself, may he recite a bracha? say a dvar Torah? sing zemiros?

3) kol isha erva - he may not hear a female sing, nor may he say a bracha while a female is singing

4) for even younger ages, really more for the parents - boys wearing shorts, until what age?

5) men being taught the halachos women and girls must observe so that they can be aware when their wives and daughters are slipping. It's incongrous when one sees a Chasid in long coat, beard, and hat, walking with improperly dressed family members.
The Zohar states, "Be aware and warn your wives and daughters not to walk nituyos garon (haughtily) ... they entrap those who see them and will bear the sins of the multitudes ..."

the father has the mitzva of being mechanech his children, and instilling tznius in his daughters is his responsibility, he may not remain oblivious or aloof to this! Ditto for his wife, as the ruchnius (spirituality) of the house is his responsibility.

Needless to say (well ... it should be needless), the husband shouldn't encourage his wife to dress inappropriately! Chasanim need to be taught about tznius when preparing for marriage.

6) that it is forbidden to own a store that sells clothing to Jewish girls and women that are not in accordance with the laws of tznius

7) shaking hands
8) mingling
9) no walking between two women
10) how to conduct oneself when interacting with women, even religious women, at work etc. issue about using first names etc.
11) refined speech
12) keeping personal things to yourself

Last edited by Jude; 03-05-2003 at 06:32 PM.
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Unread 10-14-2002, 11:52 AM   #2
masbir
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Quote:
A practical example: a boy becomes bar mitzva. Who teaches him that he is forbidden from saying a bracha while facing erva (that which must be covered by a female)? This comes up all the time, on the bus, at the Shabbos table, etc.
They same way they learn all the laws of Krias Shma they probably dont skip those simonom dealing with those issues (it is not tucked away in some far out part of Shilchon Aruch just in Hil Krias Shma. Why assume theu dont know.
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Unread 10-14-2002, 11:54 AM   #3
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Quote:
The Zohar states, "Be aware and warn your wives and daughters not to walk nituyos garon (haughtily) ... they entrap those who see them and will bear the sins of the multitudes ..."
Did you find the Zohar? why are withholding the source?
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Unread 10-14-2002, 12:09 PM   #4
Jude
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"withholding" - ooh, that sounds deliberate, with malice aforethought. Actually, it's from the end of parshas Vayeishev, as quoted by the Chasam Sofer, which was quoted in something I read. The lashon is:

"Isa b'Zohar, sh'shinui malbushim hu hascholas pirtzas ha'erva ... v'hinini chozer u'mazhir, mi l'Hashem eilai, yireh v'yazhir n'shi beiso u'bnosav l'vilti teilachna netuyos garon ... heim machshilos es ro'an b'avonoseinu ha'rabim, v'cheit ha'rabim yis'u, v'al tzava'reihen yistargu."
It occurs to me, that perhaps the words from the Zohar are only from "Isa" until "ha'erva" and that maybe the words that follow are the Chasam Sofer's. The place I read it in quoted the entire thing from the Zohar. Masbir?

Last edited by Jude; 10-22-2002 at 09:49 AM.
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Unread 10-14-2002, 02:07 PM   #5
masbir
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Sure, the Chasam Sofer never quoted that from Zohar, only about Shinu Malbushim. Now, I didnt find the Zohar now, but I am almost sure that the C.S. is refering to the story of Eishes Potifar which in Zohar it uses the expression that "the dress she wore in the morning she didnt wear at night", in order to seduce Yosef. And this what the CS means "Shinu Malbushim hu Hashcolos Erveh". Based on the description of what she did.

Sorry, I didnt mean anything Just I was wondering, since i never heerd about this Zohar, so I wanted to know the source. However., similar to that is in Shabos 62:b
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Unread 10-22-2002, 01:06 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jude
"withholding" - ooh, that sounds deliberate, with malice aforethought. Actually, it's from the end of parshas Vayeishev, as quoted by the Chasam Sofer, which was quoted in something I read. The lashon is:

"[i]Isa b'Zohar, sh'shinui malbushim hu hascholas pirtzas ha'erva ... v'hinini chozer u'mazhir, mi l'Hashem eilai, yireh v'yazhir n'shi beiso u'bnosav l'vilti teilachna netuyos garon ... heim machshilos es ro'an b'avonoseinu ha'rabim, v'cheit ha'rabim yis'u, v'al tzava'reihen yistargu."

It occurs to me, that perhaps the words from the Zohar are only from "Isa" until "ha'erva" and that maybe the words that follow are the Chasam Sofer's. The place I read it in quoted the entire thing from the Zohar. Masbir?
jude you should have known that the zohar is in aramaic so it could not have been the zohar
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Unread 10-22-2002, 09:51 AM   #7
Jude
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ah, the power of the printed word. Since the stated source was the Zohar, I believed them. It only occurred to me as I posted an answer to masbir's query, that hey, maybe this is not all from the Zohar! Guess I haven't been learning much Zohar lately ...
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Unread 10-22-2002, 10:00 AM   #8
Jude
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Quote:
They same way they learn all the laws of Krias Shma they probably dont skip those simonom dealing with those issues (it is not tucked away in some far out part of Shilchon Aruch just in Hil Krias Shma. Why assume theu dont know.
why assume? well, how about because people display their ignorance of these laws? if they learned them, they forgot them ..

another relevant topic which I didn't mention above is Yichud.

Can a babysitter (girl) be alone with your over 9 year old son? (no).

Can a man home without his wife for Shabbos, allow his daughter to have a friend sleep over? (yes).

Can a man and his son sleep over at a home where the wife is present without her husband? (the answer we got was no; even though the man was considered b'ir (local), the rav still said no)

Can a couple have a boarder (boy) if the man travels out of town? (no)


yichud questions come up often, especially when travelling
got to know that there's even something to ask a rav!
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Unread 10-22-2002, 10:18 AM   #9
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jude, I'm not sure about the daughter have a friend sleep over where the wife is not around part.........the rationale for the heter would be that the daughter is the shomer, i DON'T REMEMBER THAT ON THE LIST OF SHOMRIM like mother in law daughter in law for example. I SEEM TO REMEMBER that the Bootshasher speaks about it
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Unread 10-22-2002, 10:31 AM   #10
masbir
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Quote:
why assume? well, how about because people display their ignorance of these laws? if they learned them, they forgot them ..
Poeple know that Loshen hara is assur, kaas is assur, Bittul torah is assur, woman know priyzos is aasur.

Maybe ypu should write what the woman has to study in order to remind the husband. To not go shopping with her becuase it is bittul torah etc.
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Unread 10-22-2002, 11:05 AM   #11
Jude
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someone sent me the following:

In the sefer halachos of yichud it says “As a general rule, Yichud of any entire group is permitted if any 2 of its individuals are permitted to have Yichud with one another. The individuals who are permitted to have Yichud automatically serve as Shomrim.

Example: Father & daughter with unrelated man or woman: A father & daughter are permitted to have Yichud, therefore Yichud of all 3 is permitted.”

masbir: you are welcome to start any thread you like
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Unread 10-22-2002, 11:40 AM   #12
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Thanks for permission!
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Unread 10-22-2002, 01:29 PM   #13
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and thanks for your suggestion, I had just about run out of ideas
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Unread 10-23-2002, 08:31 AM   #14
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Question for those who grew up going to Lubavitcher schools or for those who are currently sending their boys to Lubavitcher school:

Is the idea of tznius taught or talked about with the boys in school? Are any of the issues raised in the previous posts ever discussed in school?

Yes, these things should be taught at home by the parents; but shouldn't it also be reinforced/taught in school?
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Unread 02-08-2004, 12:16 PM   #15
Jude
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the book "9 to 5 - A Guide to Modest Conduct for Today's Workplace" by Rabbi Shmuel Neiman (a translation of the sefer "Yatza Adam L'Fa'alo") is a short but vital book that should be required reading/learning for high school/seminary girls and yeshiva boys.

it covers the laws of "kereiva" which are the forbidden actions that foster familiarity between men and women, and gives practical examples of when they apply, things like what you may and may not discuss, shaking hand, physical contact when it's not a sign of affection, exchanging gifts, proper form of name address, etc.

and it covers the laws of yichud

important both in the workplace and in shlichus
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Unread 02-15-2004, 04:09 PM   #16
Jude
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this book (mentioned above) says it's forbidden for a single man, regardless if he is a bachelor, widower, or divorce, to be employed on a permanent basis at a workplace where it is necessary for him to interact with women, even if there is no prohibition of yichud.

and when bachurim are hired by shluchim?
this halacha would mean the bachur could only be employed if his work does not require him to interact with Mrs. Shlucha!
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Unread 02-15-2004, 05:01 PM   #17
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Mrs Shlucha? What about female backpackers?
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Unread 02-15-2004, 05:21 PM   #18
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what about boys age nine and up? They are also not allowed to be alone with a girl or touch a girl, right? Shouldn't they know this? And this all becomes very complicated with step-family, especially if they're uncooperative!
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Unread 02-15-2004, 06:53 PM   #19
Jude
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Quote:
Originally posted by RebYid
Mrs Shlucha? What about female backpackers?
??
please explain
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Unread 02-15-2004, 06:54 PM   #20
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I'm trying to allude to the fact that the horse has LONG since bolted. There is no-one to talk too anymore.
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Unread 02-15-2004, 07:06 PM   #21
Jude
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are you saying that you think thousands of shluchim who are out there to teach Yiddishkeit, don't care about halacha?

are you saying that people shouldn't have guests?
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Unread 02-15-2004, 07:11 PM   #22
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It has already been pointed out elsewhere that most shluchim run modern orthodox shuls and congregations. The problem is that bochrim are not being taught what OUR standards should be.

Last edited by RebYid; 02-15-2004 at 07:19 PM.
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Unread 02-15-2004, 07:47 PM   #23
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I don't think it is more an issue of ignorance, rather than not caring.
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Unread 02-15-2004, 08:14 PM   #24
RebYid
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I think ignorance is more of a symptom than the problem itself.

Shluchim are (or feel they are) under a lot of pressure to do pe'olus, be mekarev people etc. So they tend to use all means available to them. This feeling spreads to bochrim and since there is no independent authority really telling them what is allowed, they tend to judge for themselves.

Last edited by RebYid; 02-15-2004 at 10:15 PM.
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Unread 02-15-2004, 08:28 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by RebYid
It has already been pointed out elsewhere that most shluchim run modern orthodox shuls and congregations.
http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/show...x&pagenumber=1
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