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Unread 03-18-2002, 10:38 AM   #26
Jude
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Masbir: To repeat:
<<Just because that story had a sad ending doesn't prove you advised him wrongly!
Considering the Ki Sisa sicha (L.S. vol. 1) about how in one sense (teshuva), avoda zara is preferable to sitting on the fence, who's to say other than the Rebbe or perhaps a wise rav who can offer suitable guidance in individual cases?>>

it was worded as a suggestion, a possibility, not as dogma! And look at what Mendelp wrote! Clearly, there's no one right answer. Again, I think being in touch with the person is most essential wherever he goes.

As a BT I know said, the behavior that goes on in unsupervised apartments that Y.U. has for its students (not the dorm), is identical to that in secular colleges.

Last edited by Jude; 03-18-2002 at 10:41 AM.
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Unread 03-18-2002, 01:20 PM   #27
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<<<<This involves a clear issur deoiraisa. In reality, there is no need to explain this, because I have already quoted over and over elsewhere that any influence which arouses immoral thoughts is forbidden mideoiraisa according to the posuk of Lo sosuru acharei levavchem ve'acharei ainaichem, on which Chazal say: “ve'acharei ainaichem – zu zenus (this is a thought of immoral relations)”. And the Sefer HaChinuch says that this is one of the six constant Mitzvos that apply equally to women too. And how are such thoughts aroused? “The evil inclination only controls a person by that which his eyes see.” (Sotah 8>>..a

Not every bad thing is an issur deoiraisa! Is working in a company were men and woman are mixed an issur deoiraisa? No! The same way mixed schooling is not deoiraisa. Its plenty bad and detremintal to healthy education, but an open unambigious issur its not. What is not correct is not correct.

Please be less flabbergasted, so you will calmly weigh the sources in Halacha.
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Unread 03-18-2002, 01:23 PM   #28
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What I have to ponder, is, if its under the Rubric of "lifnei Ivver Lo siten michshol", but not what you are talking about.
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Unread 03-18-2002, 01:32 PM   #29
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<<Not every bad thing is an issur deoiraisa! Is working in a company were men and woman are mixed an issur deoiraisa? No! The same way mixed schooling is not deoiraisa. Its plenty bad and detremintal to healthy education, but an open unambigious issur its not. What is not correct is not correct.>>

it's not that being in mixed company is itself an issur, but that it is the setting in which issurim d'oraisa definitely take place. This was always true, but nowadays, with levels of immorality being at such a shockingly low state, every decade being considerably worse than the previous one (and you've pointed out that you're not exactly a teen, and you might very well be comparing social life of many decades ago to that of today), it's something to very seriously consider.

again, neither situation (co-ed or not Jewish) is advisable for anyone, but if such are the choices, the answer is not so clear-cut.
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Unread 03-19-2002, 02:29 AM   #30
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BS"D Masbir: Reb Moshe Feinshtein writes clearly that mixed schooling is forbidden "min hadin". Rabbi Ovadiah Yosef quotes him and agrees with him. (Oh, and the Rebbe agrees with them too, for that matter.) These are two great, widely accepted modern poskim. Why, do you have any sources to the contrary?

And you think a co-ed school "might" be putting a stumbling block ("lifnei ivver lo siten michshol") before youth?!?!

I mean, come now - what planet are you living on? It's probably been a loooooooong time since you were a teen. Wake up and smell the ubiquitous moral decay...
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Unread 03-19-2002, 03:13 AM   #31
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BS"D From shamash.org:

One of the foremost poskim of the 20th century, Rabbi Moshe Feinstein zt"l, in a response (Igros Moshe, Yore Deah - Chelek 3, Siman 78) states: ACCORDING TO ALL AUTHORITIES, CO-ED EDUCATION IS ABSOLUTELY FORBIDDEN. In fact, he says that the nature of this prohibition is so basic and simple, that there is absolutely nothing to talk about, and no room for discussion.

As others on this forum have previously pointed out, even Rabbi Soloveitchik zt"l, who himself founded a co-ed school more than 1/2 a century ago, did so only because "he had no choice" - not because he held it was permissable. In fact, I heard that Rabbi Hershel Shachter (who probably more than anyone else knew what the Rav held) mentions (in one of his writings) that the Rav told him that he was afraid that after 120 years, he would be questioned by the Heavenly court why he participated in the founding of a coed school.
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Unread 03-19-2002, 10:10 AM   #32
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what age children are we talking about? was R' Moshe talking about? the Rebbe?
how is it that there are co-ed Chabad schools? are they in defiance of the Rebbe or in compliance with a specific psak?
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Unread 04-01-2002, 07:19 AM   #33
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BS"D Reb Moshe ruled (see above-quoted sources) that even very young children (“ketanei ketanim”) may not learn co-educationally, because although there is not such a problem of "hirhur" (arousal of immoral thoughts – I am sure that if he would see what is considered “normal” for today’s children to be exposed to r”l, he would retract that), boys and girls will have become accustomed to associating with one another and then when the "hirhur" age begins, they won’t have been educated to keep a distance from one another, and all kinds of problems can result from that r”l.

So does Reb Moshe write, and the Rebbe certainly fully agrees:

“Of primarily importance is that which I see that your work is devoted to separate education of girls, i.e. that you keep with full force the requirement of segregation between boys and girls. For all who are familiar with education certainly need no explanation of the utmost serious importance of segregation, beginning from the youngest age (‘migil hachi rach’) for this is not related to the age of education of the boys and girls in Mitsvos, meaning the age of turning Bar-Mitzvah and Bas-Mitzvah, but it begins many, many years before, for the habit of the little boy and girl becomes natural for the coming years, and this is easy to understand.”

Igros Kodesh vol. 25 p. 2.

See a collection of letters about this and related issues in Likkutei Sichos vol. 22 pps. 404-7, and at greater length in HaShlichus HaChinuchis BeIgros HoRebi (an excellent, very useful sefer) pps. 124-132 and 271.

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Unread 04-23-2002, 08:04 PM   #34
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B"H


My parents and my Rabbi just agreed that i could go to Yeshiva High School here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Unread 04-23-2002, 09:03 PM   #35
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Congratulations! I'm sure I speak for all of us here when I say that I really am sincerely glad to hear of this breakthrough
May you go from strength to strength in all areas!
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Unread 04-24-2002, 01:00 AM   #36
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BS"D BORUCH HASHEM! Wow! Unbelievable!
This will surely be a source of brocho for you for your entire life.
Btw by telling us this, you have also kept the mitsvah to give besurois toivois and rejoice other Yidden!

Last edited by RavLub; 04-25-2002 at 01:35 AM.
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Unread 04-29-2002, 05:06 PM   #37
bigmushks
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mixed schools

i teach in a mixed elementary school and the classes are mixed, i have 5 girls and 4 boys and its not pretty, not just the topics they like to talk about but also the maturity level is so different. there is a reason that schools should be different, how could children learn when they are worried about all these differences? the girls think they have to make impressions on the boys and its really weird to have to deal with this after going to BR. at least classes should be separated and sides of the building etc. you deal with what you have and do the best you can.

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Unread 05-02-2002, 04:37 PM   #38
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hi
i went to a mixed school from when i was in nursery till 8th grade
( for most of the 6th grade hebrew classes we didn't learn with the boys and in 7th and 8th didn't we learn any hebrew subjects with them)
and obviously there were some occasional issues but on the most part we dind't have any problems. and this was the only frum school around so there wasnt really any other place for me to go. and we learnt just as much or even more than a regular all girls class. So its not right for people to make assumptions about these situations when they didn't expirence it themself or when they don't know all the details.
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Unread 05-02-2002, 07:18 PM   #39
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DIG youre right, you cant make assumptions but i am experiencing firsthand in front of me, the principal isnt lubavitch, hes a litvak and the school is an old religious school but now theres not too many frum kids there, so they mixed it and have a lot of kids from other neighborhoods come in to keep the school alive, they are exposed to TV and movies tooo much and thats what they like to talk about the entire day. the girls torment the boys to say whos the cutest etc and then they make a scene out of it. it really distracts the classroom setting having to feel pressured to "make an impression".
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Unread 05-02-2002, 08:14 PM   #40
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And your location is Crown Hights?
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Unread 05-02-2002, 11:37 PM   #41
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BS"D <<obviously there were some occasional issues but on the most part we dind't have any problems. >>

DIG if you personally feel that you have not been so affected by going to such a school, then:

a) Maybe you are an exception to the rule.

b) If you are still at an earlier stage in your life, then I would tell you that may well realise later in life (especially after marriage) that attending a co-ed school was detrimental in various ways.

c) I don't know you and I'm not judging you, I'm just responding to the words you wrote. So I will say that maybe you feel that the way you are is normal. But "normal" is relative. Nowadays, in the secular world, all kinds of things are "normal" which were once considered (by the gentiles!) utter perversions, and this moral decay has insidiously affected the "frum" world too. Again, I'm not saying this about you personally, just mentioning something which I think is important to keep in mind.

<<we learnt just as much or even more than a regular all girls class>>

The issue is not just the standard of learning, but the way graduates of such a school relate to members of the opposite gender for the rest of their lives.

<<So its not right for people to make assumptions about these situations when they didn't expirence it themself or when they don't know all the details.>>

Umm... are you referring to my posts? Because I didn't make any assumptions, I merely quoted several of the authoritative statements of the Rebbe, Reb Moshe Feinshtein and R. Ovadia Yossef, who are in full agreement on this matter and merely base their words on Chazal, our righteous Sages of blessed memory.
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Unread 05-05-2002, 12:00 PM   #42
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no i dont teach in crown heights.
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Unread 05-05-2002, 12:17 PM   #43
masbir
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I am sorry. I thought you are a student, you are a teacher. Now it makes sense.
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Unread 05-05-2002, 12:20 PM   #44
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thats okay, but you understand my point?
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Unread 08-22-2002, 05:17 PM   #45
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so then why are there schools, Lubavitcher schools, that are mixed? it's not as if the people who set up the schools didn't know (and I"m NOT going to say anymore on that- I'm NOT out to bash to prinicpals/shluchim of these schools). But as somebody who went to a mixed school all the way through 8th grade, I am just wondering what the difference is between kids who went mixed schools and separate schols- good, chassidishe kids. I know lots of good chassidishe kids who came out the the school just fine-like maybe even better than if they had gone to a seperate school. and then I know kids who came out ok- but would have been better to go to a seperates school. I think there are kids who do come out of mixed schools in 'excellent condition.' But in a seperate school it might have been a different story because they don't have the feeling of "I"m different, I have to be a dugma chaya on all the other kids and know to stay away from the boys/ girls."
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Unread 08-22-2002, 07:37 PM   #46
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Shlucha, I agree with you. I think that the knowledge that you are a Shliach within the school makes for a stronger Chassidishkeit in the long run.
I also went to a mixed school through 8th grade, and I don't think I would have come out with the same convictions had I gone to a non-coed school.
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Unread 08-25-2002, 03:33 PM   #47
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can u tell me whats rong with having gu friends? their the same as having girl friends, just their guys.
we are friends and we respect that.
and because their so uptight about i feel like i have to do more, because the ay they act it seeems like they expect me to do something!!!
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Unread 08-25-2002, 11:02 PM   #48
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Jude's idea seems like it would work in your case...
Pick a Rav to call and ask these questions to, and follow what he says. A child's Rav does NOT have to be the same as their parent's Rav.

About the guy friends, if you REALLY have no extra feelings for them because they are "guys", then something's wrong with you! It's OK to feel more strongly to people of the opposite gender- Hashem did that on purpose so we'd have a reason to get married (otherwise, you'd still be in the cootie stage- or the "ew, gross, a boy!"). If you pretend to not have those feelings and just push them away, you're hurting yourself- when you DO get married, you want it to feel special, no?
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Unread 08-26-2002, 12:28 AM   #49
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If your father/rabbi agrees I would recommend that you read Rabbi M. friedman's book why doesn't anyone blush anymore.
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Unread 08-26-2002, 02:26 PM   #50
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do u think that all girls in public school have feelings for all the boys in public school?
NO so whats the diff?
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