Jewish Forum & Discussions - Chabad Talk  

Go Back   Jewish Forum & Discussions - Chabad Talk > Torah and Judaism > Teenagers

Reply
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Unread 02-27-2002, 12:10 PM   #1
noahidelaws
Executive Platinum Member
 
noahidelaws's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,479
A Formal Framework For Educating Girls

BS"D
I have a suggestion. In the tznius and role of women threads there is much discussion about providing girls with a chinuch in Frumkeit and Chassidishkeit. But, I ask: how are girls ever supposed to become really frum and yerai Shomayim? Bochrim learn in Yeshiva for many years, keep a long Seder, have regular farbrengens, they know how to learn, they Davven etc. They also have the Shul and Beis Midrash, which serve as formal frameworks. But girls don’t seem to have any such environment. But they also seem to need it even more, because they seem to be more affected by peer pressure than boys. And there’s a problem that we can't be denied that sadly, there are sometimes harmful secular influences in the home (see the Newspapers, radio, and television thread). So an environment that supports and reinforces their frumkeit seems needed.

In 770 there is the Beis Midrash le’Noshim. This is really great. But in other Lubavitcher Shuls, girls don’t necessarily spend time in the Shul or any similar environment. Although the Neshei U’Bnos Chabad do organise shiurim etc., it is not usually at a fixed place, but at private homes (which is also great, don’t get me wrong) and even if there is a generally fixed place, girls don’t necessarily feel comfortable going there uninvited.

Perhaps such a formal framework could be arranged – a Beis Midrash le’Noshim in every Lubavitcher community, in a fixed place, with formal (and informal) programs, and always open – to which girls could go whenever they need spiritual rejuvenation, with the prospect of the companionship of others (the fact is that most of the time, the ezras noshim is deserted).

Also, this might give girls who have finished seminary and Shlichus (and for whatever reason aren’t fit for teaching or the like) a way of spending their time constructively, continuing their Torah studies (more seriously than they would have otherwise) until they marry. They could also use this venue to teach younger girls extra limudei koidesh (with the non-stop barrage of secularism nowadays , they need all the kedusha they can get).

So my suggestion is – shouldn’t some kind of more formal learning system/program be established, in a set place, for all the (Neshei but especially the) Bnos Chabad?
noahidelaws is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-27-2002, 08:58 PM   #2
Jac
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 724
Noah, you seem to be describing a paradise, or a dream world of some kind.
You compare this to the boys' having a Shul and Beis Midrash, etc. Do you think that the boys' Beis Midrash and Shul fill all that you describe here? I'm just wondering.

You have some good points, but I don't think that there any one place would be able to accomplish all that. (:" in a fixed place, with formal (and informal) programs, and always open – to which girls could go whenever they need spiritual rejuvenation, with the prospect of the companionship of others ...this might give girls who have finished seminary and Shlichus a way of spending their time constructively, continuing their Torah studies until they marry. They could also use this venue to teach younger girls extra limudei koidesh...)

I think it needs to be a combination of home, school, camp and something extracurricular like this beis midrash l'noshim. The current beis midrash l'noshim does provide shiurim and gatherings, but most of their things are attended by women, not girls (except for some evening shiurim). Having involved Seminary girls exert an influence on younger girls (have private shiurim with them, make gatherings and the like), having more shiurim for girls, more programs... all that can be done, but I don't really see how this elusive place that would fit all that you describe could possibly exist. Not to mention that between school, home and extracurricular activities, there would be no way that any kind of "formal learning system/program" would be able to fit into the schedule.

I think that girls today are capable of learning more and absorbing more kedusha than ever. Not to sound melodramatic, but so many of them are literally "thirsting" for more of it. It's the responsibility of all the influences in their lives (school, camp, etc.) to use this out to the utmost.
Jac is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-27-2002, 09:20 PM   #3
BLewbavitch
Silver Member
 
BLewbavitch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 725
BH

<<So my suggestion is – shouldn’t some kind of more formal learning system/program be established, in a set place, for all the (Neshei but especially the) Bnos Chabad?>>

When I was growing up, I remember the girls had [as far as I can recall] twice, or three times a week, some sort of program - extra curricular, which was also fun.

Learning: The problem as I see it, is that after most girls (and I write girls because this is the subject) get home from school, they are tied down with homework, helping out at home, or for various other reasons, so more study is usually very hard for them. (I don't know this is only a suggestion).
__________________
All the best,

BLewbavitch

:)"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life.":)
BLewbavitch is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-28-2002, 12:46 AM   #4
noahidelaws
Executive Platinum Member
 
noahidelaws's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,479
BS"D
In this connection I cite Hayom Yom of Shvat 21:

“It is the duty of Chassidic wives and daughters (may they live and be well) to stand in the first rank of every activity dedicated to strengthening religion and Judaism in general, particularly concerning Taharas Hamishpocho. They must organise a society of Chassidic Daughters to reinforce all the Chassidic practices concerning upbringing and education of children - as prevalent from time immemorial in Chassidic homes.”

No, Jac, I don't have any illusions that everything is perfect for the men. I'm just saying that perhaps if there would be a more organised framework for girls, both before and after seminary, it would make it easier and more accessible for the average girl to spend more time learning, davvening and farbrenging, and less likely that other influences would be able to take hold. It would also be more "thinkable" i.e. a girl who would otherwise not initiate a shiur or the like, would feel more comfortable doing so as part of such a framework. It would make a great positive difference. As you say, Jac, girls are thirsting now more than ever. So we need a system to facilitate the quenching of this thirst.

As for girls after Shlichus – I think many of them would really love to continue their Torah studies, but it seems that it is just not “the done thing.” Perhaps with such an institution, this attitude would change.

Last edited by noahidelaws; 03-03-2002 at 08:42 AM.
noahidelaws is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-28-2002, 04:37 PM   #5
Jac
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 724
But I don't understand how you think such an imaginary thing is feasible. If a girl (both before and after seminary) wants to get involved in a formal framework of such kind, she can get involved in the high school, or in camps for teens. About girls learning after shluchus, there are seminaries, and other ways of staying involved in learning, if they so desire. Don't forget that many need to start making money already ;-), and that marriage is just over the horizon for many of them too. What exactly do you envision? (in practical terms)

<<BLewbavitch - from my experience, despite responsibilities of homework or housework, girls of all ages - both before and after seminary - seem to have plenty of free time. >>
Oh really?

Last edited by Jac; 03-02-2002 at 11:58 PM.
Jac is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-28-2002, 05:23 PM   #6
PeaceInIsrael
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 171
<<BLewbavitch - from my experience, despite responsibilities of homework or housework, girls of all ages - both before and after seminary - seem to have plenty of free time. >>

there are bochurim and girls who have "plenty of free time" and there are bochurim and girls who are very busy and dont have much free time.

there is no rule, either you are an active person or not.

lets not get into gender generalisations.
__________________
The Land of Israel is G-d's gift to the Jews.

Last edited by PeaceInIsrael; 03-03-2002 at 12:11 AM.
PeaceInIsrael is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-28-2002, 05:45 PM   #7
Jac
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 724
You're right about not making gender generalizations.
As peace explains, it is dependent on the individual, not the gender.

Last edited by Jac; 03-02-2002 at 11:43 PM.
Jac is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-28-2002, 05:59 PM   #8
Jude
Executive Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 8,345
Except under special circumstances (perhaps a BT whose family is not willing to support her while she studies Torah, or a girl whose financial support is truly needed by her family), girls should not have the ol of parnasa on their heads! We can discuss this in Women's Role if you like ...
Jude is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-28-2002, 07:45 PM   #9
Jac
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 724
It's not that the ol of parnasa is on her head, it's that she wants to earn some money, and is totally old enough to do so. There's no reason why she shouldn't learn responsibility and work ethic by working at that stage of her life. (not to mention saving up money).Of course, you can gear where you work according to your interests. You don't have to be a secretary in a Manhatten law firm, you can work in a Talmud Torah or Hebrew School too.
Jac is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-28-2002, 10:43 PM   #10
noahidelaws
Executive Platinum Member
 
noahidelaws's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,479
BS"D Jude's point (with which I agree, of course) seems to be: why should a girl already be thinking about earning money, when a) there is no NEED for it and mainly b) there is so much more practical Torah knowledge which now is the ideal time to acquire. So, Jac, do I understand correctly that you think that 1-2 years of seminary is enough, and so a girl at the age of 19/20 (or 20/21 if she did Shlichus) is already fully imbued with enough Torah and Yiras Shomayim to last a lifetime? I would have thought that she should be encouraged to continue her studies while she still has the opportunity. As we all know, after marriage, women are extremely busy with responsibilities.
noahidelaws is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-01-2002, 11:55 PM   #11
Jude
Executive Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 8,345
Unless you're talking about shlichus. But if it's not shlichus, then work? to learn a work ethic? whatever for? is this a Jewish concept? do you have a Jewish source for this? It is her father's responsibility to provide for her until she marries, when it then becomes her husband's responsibility!

I think that the important trait of responsibility is (or should be) engrained in children from when they're very young, both by their parents, and primarily in school, where they are responsible to show up, on time, hand in work, prepare for tests, etc. And what is their education all about if not developing a life-long love for learning Torah and the desire to reach out to other Jews? Yes, until marriage, these ought to be her sole preoccupation! After marriage, it's this plus her family, with the family coming first (see Women's Role).
Jude is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-02-2002, 01:13 AM   #12
rebayzl
Senior Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,354
Torah

What about the woman should be earning a living so that the Husband can sit in Kolel?
rebayzl is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-03-2002, 12:21 AM   #13
Jac
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 724
Right, rebayzl, I was going to ask that very same question. Even in Chabad, where sitting in Kolel isn't the aim, there is always at least a year in Kolel. It's a wise idea for the girl to get a job before she's thrust into that situation with no way of supporting herself or her husband.

(You're right about the work ethic part, drop that one for now.)

Noah, who's talking about dropping studies? She can obviously choose to work in an environment of shlichus, such as a Talmud Torah, or a Hebrew School. I don't get what's so shocking about the idea of a girl working at the age of 21, especially since she obviously will need the money and job once she does marry!
Jac is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-03-2002, 12:42 AM   #14
masbir
Senior Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 2,287
Is there a any survey claiming that woman, in ratio to boys who sit in Yeshivas a whole day, are straying from the right path in bigger numbers? In other words, if the amount of girls who are straying, is the same as boys, so it shows that a) A yeshiva wont help (since it doesnt prevent those minority of boys who strayed despite the Yeshiva) b) They do fine without any Yeshiva. (since they stay in the fold equel to boys)
And besides. Its such a strange idea, a woman isn't supposed to sit in a Yeshiva enviroment and study to perserve her faith its innate in them as underscored in many Sichos. (unlike men who need outside "fuel" to empower their souls.)

Last edited by masbir; 03-03-2002 at 01:03 AM.
masbir is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-03-2002, 12:49 AM   #15
Jac
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 724
I agree, masbir. Especially since (b'h) women are definitely not straying any more (to say the least) than men are.
Jac is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-03-2002, 09:40 AM   #16
noahidelaws
Executive Platinum Member
 
noahidelaws's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,479
BS"D Masbir - a survey would not prove anything, even if it would exist - which it doesn't - the closest thing to that would be to survey Shadchonim. (BTW If you do do something of the sort, I would be interested to know the results.) But regardless, the issue is: something practical has to be done to further bolster the frumkeit of girls, which is constantly under fierce attack from secular culture. This cannot be denied.

And I would like to make a point here. Masbir just wrote <<a woman isn't supposed to sit in a Yeshiva environment and study to preserve her faith its innate in them as underscored in many Sichos. (unlike men who need outside "fuel" to empower their souls.)>>

It is true that women have MORE innate faith. But Masbir, your statement would appear to contradict the basis of the whole movement for girls' schools and seminaries, which (as is famous) were a completely revolution when they were first introduced. If it could also be said today that faith were innate, and would not have to be nurtured, then this radical change in Minhag Yisrael would never have been approved by the Gedoilei Yisrael, as it was unanimously. See Post #9 in the Women’s Role thread. I just listened to a sicha about this. The Rebbe explained that in the past, girls were educated by older sisters, mothers or grandmothers. When Sarah Shnerir saw that the girls around her were all leaving Torah and Mitzvos r”l, so it was necessary to break from tradition - “minhag avoisainu beyodainu” and found girls’ schools, because “bikah motso, godar boh geder” – if you find a breach it must be rectified. I.e. a new problem requires new, perhaps untraditional methods to be rectified.

So along the same lines of reasoning - there are girls who are after Shlichus but either a) waiting for a Shidduch b) not interested in Shidduchim because they (or others) don’t yet feel they are mature enough to get married (see “age of marriage” thread). So why shouldn’t they use this time to increase their Yiras Shomayim even further, by pursuing more Torah study? Don’t we need every reinforcement we can get in these trying times? After all - this girl will, iy”h, soon undertake the awesome responsibility of being an akeres habayis, on whom the environment of the home primarily depends, and on which the survival of the Jewish people depends. (I really believe this - otherwise I would not have started this thread).

The sad reality is that some of them choose to go to college instead.

Furthermore, the Chofetz Chayim explains that the seminary system is supposed to counteract college, its secular counterpart (I will quote the exact source for this in a coming post). If this is indeed the case, my simple question is:
The average girl who pursues a post-graduate secular education studies for 4-6 years. The average seminary student studies for 1-2 years. Should not the seminary system provide the average girl an education AT LEAST as comprehensive as that same girl would have received had she received a secular education?
True, one main reason why this is not done is because many girls are (correctly) encouraged to start with Shidduchim at that age (unlike college girls, of course) and Shidduchim distract one from serious study. However, if we observe that

a) the Shidduch process can drag out indefinitely (the number of older unmarried girls [and boys, for that matter] is horrifying) and
b) the general trend SEEMS to be for girls to marry at approximately 22-23. [If this is an unfair generalisation, I would be delighted for the other posters to correct me. I admit that I have made no surveys etc., but that is the impression I received from the “age of marriage” thread. (I ask the other posters to please forgive me for my past gender generalizing – I admit it is unfair, and I edited it out, as you can see. And in general, if you don’t like what I write here, or anywhere else, I apologise and I quote Jac: << It wasn't intentionally insulting; I was aware that I may have come across strong...That's what happens with the passionate people of this forum. >>)]

…perhaps the intervening time i.e. after Shlichus should be utilised for further studies.

I am not suggesting that getting a job is WRONG (provided it is in an appropriate environment, as was pointed out). But wouldn’t it be PREFERABLE to spend this precious time growing more in Yiras Shomayim through serious Torah study, achieving a standard in Yiras Shomayim AT LEAST as high as a college student does in secular studies?

(Incidentally, this would also solve the problem of male teachers in girls’ schools. As I write in the tznius thread post # 132: <<My solution: more women should devote themselves to Torah study seriously, and become qualified teachers, no less expert in their chosen subject than men. >>)
noahidelaws is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-03-2002, 10:20 AM   #17
Jude
Executive Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 8,345
I heard directly from someone working with youth that over the past years, not only has the number of young people drifting away grown tremendously, but the number of girls involved (which had always been much less than boys) has increased at a much higher rate.

As far as supporting in Kollel - I think it is very important to stress that if a woman chooses to undertake supporting her husband rather than vice versa, that this is DESPITE the fact that HE is supposed to support HER and the family. This makes a tremendous practical difference of course, because in the one case, the man, by working, is fulfilling his halachic obligation, whereas in the other case, the woman working, she is electing to do something she is NOT required to do. The woman working to support him, has numerous ramfications, specifically - how the husband views his wife and what she is doing. Does he see it as his DUE because he is studying Torah, or does he see it as a reason to have the utmost gratitude to his wife for freeing him of his responsibility? What happens as children are born - much depends on the man's attitude about his wife's working. Does he say - my Torah learning remains supreme, or does he say - it's time for me to take on what was originally MY responsibility, so my wife can now fulfill HERS to our children. Or does each one do that which Hashem did NOT ordain for them, i.e. the man doesn't work, the woman does, and someone else (Jew? gentile?) raises the children ...

There are acceptable arrangements in which the Bubby watches the children, the husband can be home learning while watching the children, the wife works only while there are no pre-schoolers at home, etc. but these types of arrangements tend to be the exception rather than the norm.

About girls/women and learning - even the most serious student who loved school, loved learning, and did well, will quickly get "out of it" once out of a formal framework, especially when married with children, but even before that.

The Rebbe strongly encourages women to study, not for the purpose of supporting her faith, though it helps, but simply to be the kind of Jewish/Chasidic women they are supposed to strive to be. Our hectic lives being what they are, I find that most women rarely learn at all, while a small number learn on their own or with a friend, or attend a shiur where they passively listen and often don't come away with more than an inspiring story or a point or two. Not that inspiring stories are undesirable, of course. The point I (and Noahidelaws) am making is that most girls/women don't even get that, and even that doesn't really satisfy the need to learn.

On the other hand, I know of girls and women who want a serious learning environment and can't find it, because the only learning available (shiurim) takes place passively, i.e. the teacher lectures, and the students are not invited to actively participate by reading out loud from the sicha/maamar and attempting to learn it/ explain it themselves with the teacher facilitating.

Even with their innate emuna, girls/women need a constant source and infusion of halacha and Chasidic hashkafa. It's not like you can learn it all by the time you graduate, and derive nourishment from that from then on.
Jude is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-03-2002, 01:25 PM   #18
Jac
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 724
I understand the points about women learning and the importance of it, etc. But let's take this step by step. This imaginary formal frameword for girls. I'm trying to understand what exactly you have in mind (other than the vague "a framework...)

When exactly? Contrary to what you wrote, noah, I do not think that the average age of girls getting married is 22/23. I'd say more like 21. (No exxageration.) Yes, I agree that there are [unfortunately] many, many single girls who are much older, but I don't see that they are the candidates for this proposal. For one thing, by that point they are settled (with jobs, etc.) and aren't really going to be able to just drop that.

Now, a girl isn't a bochur in that she can't sit around learning until the day she gets married! The system wasn't set up that way for a reason.

For who exactly? It seems that you are targeting the after-seminary age, and specifically those that aren't getting married/don't want to get married. Let's note that most people who marry late never intended to do so, so it isn't as though she's planning her year, not like she can decide to learn for a few years since she won't be getting married till she's 24 anyway, etc.

You say that "The sad reality is that some of them choose to go to college instead." I wouldn't say college. I would say that many of them do go to seminaries that offer college credits, such as Sarah Schneirur (way different thatn a college like Touro, etc.).
Interestingly enough, the system in Israel does have a four year seminary. But that's mainly because it's accredited and it therefore needs so long.

So you have some great points, but what exactly??

(Btw, about women teaching, there are people that the Rebbe gave specific haroas to certain men to teach. I don't know what the exact deal on men teaching girls is, but I'm not sure that it's necessarily preferable for women only to teach.)

Jude, I understand your point. I am not talking about the learning-in-kolel-for-ten-years thing. I'm referring to your regular one to two years kolel couple, before going on shluchus. This is the norm, and this is the right thing to do. The wife therefore does need to help out with some form of support! It is her utmost pleasure and greatest duty!

<<Our hectic lives being what they are, I find that most women rarely learn at all, while a small number learn on their own or with a friend, or attend a shiur where they passively listen and often don't come away with more than an inspiring story or a point or two. Not that inspiring stories are undesirable, of course. >>

Right! You are the one who goes on and on about the importance of women not going to 770 or to learn since it conficts with caring for her children!! If you're referring to single women, --as I imagine you are-- don't underestimate the power of a shiur. I think they come away with a whole lot more than a story or two.

Listen, the idea is wonderful in theory. But let's be practical . Is it plausible? Is it possible? Can it be done? Should it done? And what exactly do you want done?

Btw: Noah: <<I ask the other posters to please forgive me for my past gender generalizing – I admit it is unfair, and I edited it out, as you can see. And in general, if you don’t like what I write here, or anywhere else, I apologise and I quote Jac: << It wasn't intentionally insulting; I was aware that I may have come across strong...That's what happens with the passionate people of this forum. >> )] >>
Thanks for editing it out, I too apologize if I've responded in kind. (I edited out those parts also).
Jac is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-04-2002, 03:35 AM   #19
noahidelaws
Executive Platinum Member
 
noahidelaws's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,479
BS"D <<I do not think that the average age of girls getting married is 22/23. I'd say more like 21. (No exaggeration.)>>
If that’s the case, I am glad to be corrected.
So, there is a four-year accredited system in Israel! Great! So we have a precedent! So why can't the same thing be encouraged elsewhere? As I said, it doesn’t seem to be the “done thing.”

<<Let's note that most people who marry late never intended to do so, so it isn't as though she's planning her year, not like she can decide to learn for a few years since she won't be getting married till she's 24 anyway, etc.>> I think I acknowledged this in point a) in my post. I simply said that if anything, this is itself reason that the indefinite intervening time should be utilised fully.

<<I wouldn't say college. I would say that many of them do go to seminaries that offer college credits>> No, I mean real college. You know, amongst goyim. (Hehe – I bet you find that ironic, if you have read the 7 Laws thread.) For several years.

I think Jude has an excellent point about the prevalent passive format of women’s Shiurim, from which women do not benefit to the maximum. Shiurim should impart not just information, but skills, which are in a way more valuable than any information, because they teach the person to learn for him/herself. If there is a demand for this, it will begin.

Practically? Why couldn’t the existing seminaries simply offer ORGANISED programs for post-Shlichus girls that would last for a shorter amount of time (perhaps covering specific subjects), so they could also tolerate Shidduchim and leaving for marriage. Or perhaps at that point they could also give more formal classes to girls preparing for marriage.

<< I'm not sure that it's necessarily preferable for women only to teach.)>>

The disadvantages to this were discussed in the tznius thread. But someone recently suggested to me two distinct advantages, and I did not really know whether he was right and even if he was, whether they outweighed the apparent tznius problems. Tell me what you think: a) Women respect and hence obey male teachers more simply BECAUSE they are men. b) Women are more inclined to lose their temper than men (especially at certain times...), and the calmer, less emotional nature of men could more effectively placate the natural rowdiness of teenagers.
noahidelaws is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-04-2002, 10:55 AM   #20
masbir
Senior Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 2,287
Noah the question is if its a new crisis in the same way as it was when the Beis Yakovs opened, when it became impossible to find a Shiduch for a Frum Torah bochur with a beard, or some problem which you have to deal with, bot not create a new system of Yeshivath for girls.

I think that with proper organization and responsbility within Chabad, there are many way to deal with it without resorting to such grandiose schemes.

Jude when you wrote about an increase of girls straying, you meant more than boys, or more than it used to be?

Now, a big problem in these discussion, here, and in the general orthodox world, is the lack of scientific statistics about this whole "Frying-out" phenonmnon, people talk in hysterical tones about the collapse of the education system, the wholesale abandoning of our youth. I understand that any father and mother who has such a son or daughter is griefstricken, but the question is, is this a major new developement that our kids turn their backs on Toras Chaim en mass, or perhaps what we are seeing is a dark side effect of the growth of the orthodox community.

How so?

Perhaps (and I don't really know, for the lack of hard numbers) whats happening is this. In my times,about 20- 25 years ago, kids left the fold as well, but in a class of 30, for example which is absed in fact, we had one or 2 who left the fold, now however, in a class of 75 we have 5 or 6, which seems a lot from the point of view of the number 6 (or from the genaral community - 30, due to the many classes in all of Chabad, or even more in the whole Orthodox community). So, percentage wise we are still at less than 1% of kids leaving the fold, but the less than 1% grew and increased manyfold so it seems as a mass movemnet. so we have not a crisis but only a problem,

Now, unfortunently there is always, in any group or community be a few at the fringe who will become dissilusioned, restless, (as many americans , for example, become Taliban and all other wierd cults) and leave, its almost a law of nature, but we are not dealing with a super crisis.

My sense is that the above is correct, But again, its just a thoery, since we lack hard numbers.
masbir is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-04-2002, 11:23 AM   #21
Jude
Executive Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 8,345
Statistics: there's a Rabbi by the name of Yaakov Shapiro who has been involved with rebellious/problem youth longer than most people. He was doing it before it became "the thing to do." He has a series of 30+ tapes about parenting teenagers. He says: It is definitely NOT because our population has grown that we have more problem teens. There are MORE proportionate to our growth.
To state it perhaps more clearly - no, it's not because there are so many more frum people that there are consequently more frum kids dropping out. There are simply many more kids leaving, relative to the population. (see numbers in thread called Youth at Risk in the Teen section).

Though I don't really see why this relevant to the issue in this thread. I think that the idea of ongoing learning is an excellent one, even if kids were not dropping out. There are years between seminary and marriage, and it's a wonderful opportunity to "chap arein" more, with schedules that allow for teaching/shlichus.

About male teachers: I think there is truth to male teachers, Rabbis, being seen as more authoritative than women by the women themselves. As far as emotionally, that's a weaker point. It really depends on the personality of the teacher. Yes, by nature men instill yira and women ahava, so it's true that males, generally speaking, would be expected to discipline more effectively, but that's not really such an issue. I think it's the commanding respect which is impt., which a woman can do by her demeanor and message, even without an authoritative "edge."

And yes, the demand for skills and "inside text" learning is there. It's not a huge demand, but it's there. There are BT girls and women who would love to become self-sufficient in their learning and few do. Wouldn't it be great to have post seminary students paired up with these girls/women? It's done now, but just barely, because post-sem girls become busy with work and often, this type of tutoring doesn't pay. A formal framework in which those with skills and background can learn on their level (be makebel) while also offering tutoring to those who need it (being mashpia), would be wonderful. Because I know that the way things stand now, and I've heard this directly from people involved, only the very few highly motivated girls/women without skills bother to pursue someone to help them gain those skills. And for those with background, again, if they're motivated, they will get together with other girls privately once in two weeks maybe, to learn a sicha. This is a serious drop in the learning level that they were accustomed to up until they graduated. What justifies it? Only fulltime teaching/shlichus I think, and even then - good teachers will tell you that to maintain their level of excellence in teaching, they must continue to learn themselves, even if they're teaching younger grades who don't require advanced sichos, maamarim. A teacher is good, not only in what she gives over, but in what she knows in general, from which she draws, no matter the level she is teaching.

Last edited by Jude; 06-17-2002 at 05:16 PM.
Jude is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-04-2002, 01:32 PM   #22
masbir
Senior Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 2,287
One thing I am not clear (perhaps someone has a reliable source) we all know that studying for woman is very problematic. In Shilcon Aruch its clearly stated that its Asur. Now the Gedolei Yesroel permitted as needed for the sake of the generation. Is the Rebbes opinion that they can also study Gemora? I havn't heard (doesn't mean anything) that in Chabad they study extensive Gemarah. Perhaps in depth studying they didnt allow. Are we going down the road of the Modern Orthodox by creating poskos and lomdonyos that becomes the vogue of M.O. and Mafdal?

Last edited by masbir; 03-10-2002 at 01:31 AM.
masbir is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-04-2002, 02:18 PM   #23
Jude
Executive Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 8,345
As Jac wrote in the Gemara thread, Beis Rivka of Cr. Hts. includes mishnayos Shabbos and Gemara Brachos in its curriculum. I know the Rebbe maintained that if girls' intellects will be stimulated by secular studies, then they should surely be stimulated by limudei kodesh. Would also like the source for that.

Surely you would agree that if the curriculum concentrated on Tanach, practical halacha as well as sichos and maamarim, we would be in no danger of following the "frum feminists".
Jude is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-05-2002, 02:39 AM   #24
noahidelaws
Executive Platinum Member
 
noahidelaws's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,479
Need for Girls and Women to Study Gemara and Chassidus

BS”D Masbir - In Igros Koidesh vol. 7 p. 247, the Rebbe says:

You write that as a Bais Ya’akov teacher you want to know if the rumour is true that study of Gemara was permitted for girls, but you do not specify which Gemara and in what form.

The manner of study depends on the level of the students, their talents and knowledge. The foundations with which one can establish specifics in this matter are based on that which is explained in Hilchos Talmud Torah, In Yoireh Deioh 247:2, and the commentaries there. The basic point and final conclusion of all this can be found in Hilchos Talmud Torah of the Alter Rebbe towards the end of the first chapter: “Women too are obliged to study the Halochois (laws) which they need, to know them, like laws of niddah and immersion and salting and the prohibition of yichud (seclusion) and the like – ALL non-time-related positive commandments and ALL negative commandments, whether Scriptural or Rabbinic, in which they are warned just the same as men.”

In addition, nowadays the foundations of religion have become weakened in the minds of the masses and especially of the youth, and the slyness from the outside has entered them, so Torah study is essential. Especially for girls, on whom in several years the entire conduct of the home will deepen- they must be informed of the beauty of Torah and become familiar with the outlook of our holy Torah on those problems which they encounter on a daily basis as a wife to her husband and a mother to her children. The experience of recent years has demonstrated how essential this knowledge is.

In accordance with the above, in recent years it is impossible for girls not to have at least a general knowledge of Chassidus which brings to a more internal feeling in matters between man and Hashem – love and fear of Hashem, and in love of one’s fellow Jew and love of Torah.

In Igrois Koidesh vol. 14 p. 99, someone asks whether he can continue teaching Gemara to an eleven year old girl and the Rebbe says – no problem – learn sections which have practical relevance, of which there are many, especially since she is close to accepting the yoke of Mitzvos at the age of Bas-Mitzvah.

Also - my thought - if it is seen as a novelty, and more exciting intellectually, and one is teaching girls who like that kind of thing, it would seem that one SHOULD study in-depth these practical sugyos (sections of gemara), and explain all the reasons etc.
noahidelaws is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-10-2002, 01:25 AM   #25
noahidelaws
Executive Platinum Member
 
noahidelaws's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,479
Men teaching women/girls

BS"D
You never know what you find when you search. This is really very clear:

It is both desirable and necessary to have someone speak often before the women in the N'shei Chabad organization. (Analyse Hilchos Talmud Torah of the Alter Rebbe, end of ch. 1). If a man will succeed more at this, he should speak, and even in a situation of doubt. (emphases in original)

Yagdil Torah, Eretz HaKodesh vol. 6 p. 2584, cited in Sha'arei Halocho Uminhog vol. 3 p. 159.
noahidelaws is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Our Girls Jude Teenagers 98 12-21-2005 05:11 PM
"Mystics, Mavericks and Merrymakers" Jude Book Reviews 44 07-05-2005 09:07 AM
Summer Plans Jude Camp 127 05-10-2005 11:28 PM
halachos of tznius when with girls chaya Modesty - Tznius 9 01-24-2005 02:53 AM
Girls' Learning Camp? Jude Camp 23 08-26-2004 11:52 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:47 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2001 - 2016 ChabadTalk.com