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Unread 01-30-2003, 01:44 PM   #101
awertvbh1
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thank you, and thanx to you guys im able to say that so thanx again
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Unread 01-30-2003, 06:03 PM   #102
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any time.... i just love seeing growth in print!!!!
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Unread 01-30-2003, 09:11 PM   #103
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yea i guess its a godo feeling to see that you helped ppl.!!!
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Unread 05-14-2007, 01:44 PM   #104
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My father says, Stupid people learn from their own mistakes, Smart people learn from others mistakes....
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Unread 05-16-2007, 12:37 PM   #105
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sorry to bring everyone back to topic, but i read through this whole thread and all i could think of was what has been going through my mind recently.
ok, im one of those that grew up in schools with rules but i started disobeying. i met a boy in my town and he later went to israel to learn, and i talk to some other guys on the phone, met them once etc. but what got me thinking was lately ive been going through a rough time and i thought back to the time i met these guys and i had the greatest conversations and i wish there was a boy in my town i knew that would be good for me. i actually feel i talk better and ''load off'' my feelings and happier with boys than girls. and im thinking, what if it is just like how its always been, that were just chatting. there nothing wrong with talking, and especially if its good for you, and i know i dont want for myself to go further than talking. i have friends who are messed up because they took a step further i.e one friend is 16 and has had 3 or 4 miscarriages, now i know thats not a life to lead but if i feel that the only way ill be happy where iam where i live is if i have boy friend i can relate to. wow, i got it out, havent written it down or anything. and the fact i know i wont step over my border, bc last year as a mistake i went out with this guy, besdies for the age gap, he wasnt for me but i was confused and when i started feeling warning bells i stopped it- he wanted me to have ... with him. i was scared. scared bc of the things ive heard from other people and my own feelings. so with these feelings, how can i go wrong. i just want to be happy.
have all of you that have posted ever been in the situation to give the advice you have given. i also believe that teenagers no matter what you say they will do. i was there.
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Unread 05-16-2007, 04:26 PM   #106
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I can understand you not wanting to associate with certain girls because of their lewdness, but that is not an excuse to turn from every girl. Your pull towards guys is only hormonal and your yetzer hora speaking. It isn't healthy for a frum girl to be associating with other boys. You can try to justify it as much as you want, saying you don't feel anything, but it could lead to something. And, even if you don't feel anything, he might. YOU could be (partly) responsible for causing him to think improper thoughts. You could be causing him to blemish his neshoma. And, why would you want to put yourself (and him) in that situation? Why would you want to compromise your values? My suggestion is to go find girls who are serious about their faith and befriend them.

The only man H'Shem wants you to have a relationship with is your future husband. Please, please, please (!) understand that the Rabbeim know what they're talking about when they say guys and girls should not "fraternize". There really is no such thing as a platonic relationship.

Last edited by yekkes; 05-16-2007 at 10:55 PM.
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Unread 05-16-2007, 06:16 PM   #107
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I can understand you not wanting to associate with certain girls because of their lewdness, but that is not an excuse to turn from every girl....
I'm just wondering, are you a haredi by any chance?
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Unread 05-16-2007, 08:12 PM   #108
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The mere fact that you associated yourself with a boy who tried to seduce you, shows exactly where you're at and how easily you can get swept...
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Unread 05-16-2007, 09:01 PM   #109
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I'm just wondering, are you a haredi by any chance?
Why? Do you think it's proper for boys and girls to be friends?
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Unread 05-16-2007, 10:52 PM   #110
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Why? Do you think it's proper for boys and girls to be friends?
It is very improper.
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Unread 05-16-2007, 11:03 PM   #111
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Forgive me, I didn't read which part of my reply you quoted.

RE the quote. I don't see what seems haredi-ish about it. Would YOU want to hang out with a guy that got three or four girls pregnant (adapting it from the girl who had three or four miscarriages)? Most non-Jewish, non-religious people I know wouldn't even want to associate with people who have that low of standards. From what I could tell, she was put off by girls because of their lack of tznius.
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Unread 05-17-2007, 01:06 AM   #112
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im4, it is difficult to respond to your post as it rambles a bit, but trying to extract what is relevant:

1. There is nothing wrong with talking to the opposite gender.

2. Talking to the opposite gender is good for you.

3. Because I don't want to go further than talking, I never will.

4. The only way I will be happy is with a boyfriend.

5. I know I won't step over my border.

6. How can I go wrong if I just want to be happy.

7. Have any of us been in this situation.

8. You will do whatever you want no matter what we write.

That basically sums up the points that you make. I don't think I need to tell you that the last point is self defeating. If you don't plan on following any suggestions, then why come here? Additionally, whether we say we have been in this situation makes no difference, as a) you have no idea if we will be truthful, and b) one doesn't have to sin to know what a sin is.

Our place on this earth is not to be happy. It is to serve Hashem. We are asked to serve Hashem with joy, but as the Alter Rebbe tells us emphatically in Tanya chapter 41, we begin to serve Hashem with fear, not joy - joy comes later. Therefore, when considering our feelings and what we want, our overriding concern must be, how does this serve Hashem?

I know this concept may seem difficult to you judging by your writing, but I will assume that you either did not grow up with Chasidus or grew up nominally within Chabad but had no exposure to those teachings that influence your behavior.

All relationships begin with communication. A look, a wink, a body signal, some talk. No one leaps on each other physically. Additionally, no one can set limits on where the body/Yetzer Hora wants to go with these feelings and relationships. To say that you will put boundaries on how far you will go, without having the tools to prevent yourself from going further, is absurd.

Talking leads to touching. Touching leads to intimacy. Intimacy leads to irrevocable acts, to pregnancy and possible diseases. The time to talk to the opposite gender is when you are ready for a permanent relationship that will result in these possibilities, which is after marriage.

Happiness is defined by who we are, not what we have. Having a boyfriend will not solve any problems or cause happiness. Being comfortable in your own skin will bring true happiness. The way to do that during the teen years when you are ravaged by changing hormones is through learning about yourself - your strengths and weaknesses, what you can offer the world around you, and what Hashem expects of you.
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Unread 05-17-2007, 01:08 PM   #113
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Why? Do you think it's proper for boys and girls to be friends?
I think I can hear both sides of the argument. btw you must be Jewish.
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Unread 05-17-2007, 01:10 PM   #114
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Forgive me, I didn't read which part of my reply you quoted.

RE the quote. I don't see what seems haredi-ish about it. Would YOU want to hang out with a guy that got three or four girls pregnant (adapting it from the girl who had three or four miscarriages)? Most non-Jewish, non-religious people I know wouldn't even want to associate with people who have that low of standards. From what I could tell, she was put off by girls because of their lack of tznius.
I agree with you that tzinut is a very commendable and worthy trait.
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Unread 05-17-2007, 04:37 PM   #115
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There is no "other side." At least no halachically acceptable other side. Boys and girls should not be friends. Period.

I can understand where she's coming from. Believe me. Most of my friends before I became frum were girls because that's who I felt I "connected with" easier. But it still isn't a valid argument. I understand she feels she can control herself, but doesn't Pirkei Avos say not to trust yourself until the day you die? She may feel mature and responsible, but she has to realize that no matter what age she is, the yetzer hora can get the better of her. It's better that she doesn't put herself in that position to begin with.

H'Shem set up this world. He set it up in a way that boys should be friends with boys, and girls should be friends with girls. He didn't set it up to be that some girls could be friends with boys or vice versa. Everything H'Shem does is for the good. That's all there is to it. I understand she feels lonely. I understand she feels she doesn't get along with girls as well. But, there is a reason for that. Maybe H'Shem set it up that way so she could have this challenge and overcome it. It would strengthen her neshoma. Maybe not. I shouldn't speculate on what H'Shem's plan is, but it's still an idea.
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Unread 05-17-2007, 04:40 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JewishHiphop View Post
btw you must be Jewish.
I think we can safely assume she's Jewish. And, remember, both parties must be goyim for the friendship to be okay. It's not fine for a Jewish girl and a goy guy to be friends.
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Unread 05-17-2007, 10:39 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by im4israel100 View Post
bc of the things ive heard from other people and my own feelings. so with these feelings, how can i go wrong. i just want to be happy.
have all of you that have posted ever been in the situation to give the advice you have given. i also believe that teenagers no matter what you say they will do. i was there.
The only one Happy is your Yetzer Ara, and Hashem is very unhappy with this , b/c Hashem has other plans for you,
There is the other half of your soul, that is going to reunited with your half, at the most appropiate time.
You are a princess, do not througt yourself to the garbage, you are very precious
this time of your youth is so precious that you should use it wisely, learning Torah, and doing a lot of chessed
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Unread 05-26-2007, 11:44 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by im4israel100 View Post
sorry to bring everyone back to topic, but i read through this whole thread and all i could think of was what has been going through my mind recently.
ok, im one of those that grew up in schools with rules but i started disobeying. i met a boy in my town and he later went to israel to learn, and i talk to some other guys on the phone, met them once etc. but what got me thinking was lately ive been going through a rough time and i thought back to the time i met these guys and i had the greatest conversations and i wish there was a boy in my town i knew that would be good for me. i actually feel i talk better and ''load off'' my feelings and happier with boys than girls. and im thinking, what if it is just like how its always been, that were just chatting. there nothing wrong with talking, and especially if its good for you, and i know i dont want for myself to go further than talking. i have friends who are messed up because they took a step further i.e one friend is 16 and has had 3 or 4 miscarriages, now i know thats not a life to lead but if i feel that the only way ill be happy where iam where i live is if i have boy friend i can relate to. wow, i got it out, havent written it down or anything. and the fact i know i wont step over my border, bc last year as a mistake i went out with this guy, besdies for the age gap, he wasnt for me but i was confused and when i started feeling warning bells i stopped it- he wanted me to have ... with him. i was scared. scared bc of the things ive heard from other people and my own feelings. so with these feelings, how can i go wrong. i just want to be happy.
have all of you that have posted ever been in the situation to give the advice you have given. i also believe that teenagers no matter what you say they will do. i was there.
B"H
Good for you for finally getting out all your emotions and frustrations. That's a step in the right direction.
Before you get any advice from any of us though, why don't you go and read what you wrote. Imagine that it was written by a different girl. Imagine that this girl came and asked you for advice with all her issues. How would YOU respond. If you HAD to give the correct answer, what would you tell her?
Think about it.

Now I could go on and on and tell you about the spiritual suicide that guy/girl relationships cause. I can go on for ages telling you that it never stops as just "talking".
There are a lot of other threads about all of this with a lot of interesting responses...

A lot of frum teenagers, in some small way or another have had a boy/girl "situation". I am sure that most of them regret it. Would you want your future husband to be sitting now and speaking to a girl who isn't you? And for him to be doing so because he feels he can "connect" with her and she "understands" him?
I think not. Why would you want to open up and bare your emotions, fears, and challenges with a boy who is not destined to be yours?
If you really needed someone to talk to, there is your Mashpia, the issue though is that it's not as deep as "conversation".

Rather you want something else. You want the invigorating feeling of someone from the opposite gender to compliment you, to say you're smart, funny, pretty, etc. Perhaps it's subconscious, but this is what your desires are after. The thing is, is that no matter what, it doesn't stop there. It's impossible. Emotions intermingle with passion, and suddenly what was once a friendly relationship takes on new meaning. A meaning that is opposite of what it should be.

Anyways, this was all my opinion, so take it however you'd like to.

Bottom line though is that you need to decide who you want to be. Where do you stand? What do you think Hashem expects of you? What would the Rebbe tell you to do? Is this what you truly want? Will this truly bring you inner happiness?
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Unread 05-27-2007, 05:49 AM   #119
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Think about it this way: If Moshiach comes right now, will I be embarrassed that I did that?
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Unread 05-27-2007, 04:48 PM   #120
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In today's generation, you never know where the end Ch"v is! Back in the day (up till about 6 years ago) that wasn't the case. [***]

In today's generation with all the exposure and perversion the risk is much greater, but that was not always the case. I personaly witnessed dozens of people grow up and hang out with people of the opposite gender, and sometimes not even be shomer negiah, and yet LIMITS ARE LIMITS! [***]
HOWEVER, these people have told me openly that they can't get over for years, the emotional, spiritual, and psychological damage that having these interactions caused them. Besides for the obvious problem of [***] which is BOUND to happen, the whole idea puts you in a situation that's extremely unhealthy where you can't be yourself and you're always questioning, "does he/she like me?" "Wow! She smiled at me, so she must think I'm cute!" And the whole thing becomes a stupid immature bussiness which will stunt your growth spiritualy and otherwise, and can have a lasting negative effect on how you will interact with your spouse when you marry at the right time.

Flirting as we know it is fun but futile. It's being someone you're not to someone you don't know, and that someone being the same to you. It's getting high on hormones. It's a facade. It's fake. And it falls apart, because it never was real in the first place. Flirting says, go from the outside, in. Judaism says, come from the inside, out. Flirting puts passions before personalities. Judaism puts personalities before passions. Flirting is shoot-first-and-ask-questions-later. Judaism is ask-questions-first and-shoot-later.
So it's very possible that if you have a "friend" from the opposite gender, that by merely talking to them, before you turn around you will be [***]. That can happen!
But even if not,the whole business is self-destructive and stop while you're ahead!

Last edited by Rabbi_D; 05-27-2007 at 10:49 PM. Reason: Unnecessarily explicit.
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Unread 12-27-2007, 09:25 PM   #121
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K i dont know how old this thread is but i read thru, got some inspiration but it didnt last long so i decided that im gonna post anyway
Heres the sitch i have a friend of the opposite gender, we just talk and hang out together & u know have a good time. We have never touched/kiss/hug -not even by mistake like when handing over car keys- and never had yichud. we both get disgusted when we see guys and girls all over each other and we feel like this wont go further than what its at now. what can poosibly be wrong?? Ive heard many different reasons but i am not convinced, and believe me if i am shown why properly i will break this relationship
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Unread 12-27-2007, 09:36 PM   #122
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One reason is that you don't want thoughts of this person interfering with the thoughts you will have about your future spouse. You don't want it to intefere with the pure joy you will have thinking about no one else but your spouse. Thoughts of other people while you are married can mar the joy of your marriage. And it can mar the closeness of your marriage when thoughts and memories of other close relationships enter your mind.
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Unread 12-27-2007, 09:51 PM   #123
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look im 16 now, when im gonna go out and get married IY"H this will be history. i mean some friends that you have eventually if its just friendly relationships you just loose touch

Last edited by chitas=connect; 12-27-2007 at 09:52 PM. Reason: typo
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Unread 12-27-2007, 10:03 PM   #124
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The other person might be affected more than you know. Why put a stumbling block in their future marriage? They might remember you even if you won't remember them.
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Unread 12-27-2007, 10:03 PM   #125
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Don't mean to be rude chitas, but do you learn chitas with the opposite gender? Seriously! I know a MO guy that learns Gemoroh with his GF. They're not shomer negiah but they would NEVER have relations until they get married when and if they decide to do so. They even speak about it openly...
Remains of the Chossid who felt it was no big deal to be a Chossid in his home town, but decided to go to the theatre and be Chossid there, and Nu'ch with box seats...
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