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Unread 03-06-2007, 08:13 PM   #1
noahidelaws
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Age of Serving in the Army

Rashi on Bamidbor 1:3 says that one doesn't serve in the army younger than age 20. But I was searching and searching, and couldn't find it: Where in Torah (Chumash, Rashi, or elsewhere) does it say (or so I remembered) that one can go to the army until the age of sixty? (I know it speaks about erchin from the ages of 20 to 60, but that's different. Also it clearly says that Leviim go to the army from the ages of 30-50, but I'm asking about Yisro'eilim.) This came up in a conversation with someone who claimed that over the age of 30 people don't have the stamina to serve without seriously endangering their lives.
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Unread 03-06-2007, 09:47 PM   #2
Torah613
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In halacha (Rambam) no age is mentioned at all (not even the age of 20), so hard to say that halacha "says" that someone over 30 can/should serve, if the metzius (today) shows otherwise.
Legofo shel inyon, the gezeira of dying within the 40 years was on those less than 60 and over 20, which would imply that this was the age of tzovo.
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Unread 03-07-2007, 08:10 AM   #3
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I don't remember saying that Halocho says that one over thirty should serve, but that I had thought it says so in Chumash.

I am aware that in Chumash it says specifically that those from 20-60 died; however, why does this imply that these were the ones who went to the army?

Shuv ro'isi that this inyan is written kimat befeirush, and it's not just a mashmo'us: in Devorim, 2:16, shtait: "Vayehi ka'asher tamu kol anshei hamilchomo lomus." Since we know that those from 20-60 died out in the desert, it follows from this posuk licho'oiro that this was the age of going to war. But ho gufo kashyo, why was dying out tolui on being one of the anshei tzovo? (And did the women, who of course don't go to war, not die out? I seem to recall that they didn't, actually, but I don't recall the source.)

Elo ulai yesh lomar that since the gezeira to die out in the desert was caused by the chet hameraglim, it only applied to those fit to go to war. The main people who would have wanted the meraglim to go to assess the matzav be'derech ha'teva and been discouraged by the unfavourable report would have been those who knew that bederech hateva they would have to fight.

Last edited by noahidelaws; 03-07-2007 at 08:57 PM.
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Unread 03-07-2007, 08:49 AM   #4
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It was in chitas a bit ago with the מחצית השקל, that it includes those who go to the army- כל היוצא צבא- from 20 to sixty. My question is- why does Israel bother kids younger than that? I see חיילים and חיילות my age....first of all, the girls don't belong there...we know what they get into, and second, where does age 18 come in???
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Unread 03-07-2007, 09:37 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
I don't remember saying that Halocho says that one over thirty should serve, but that I had thought it says so in Chumash.
So it seemed from your question.
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I am aware that in Chumash it says specifically that those from 20-60 died; however, why does this imply that these were the ones who went to the army?
Rashi Shelach 24:29.
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Unread 03-07-2007, 01:43 PM   #6
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Majorthinker, please quote the posuk you are referring to, chapter and verse--thanks in advance.
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Unread 03-07-2007, 02:42 PM   #7
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Shemos 30:14, see Rashi
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Unread 03-07-2007, 08:58 PM   #8
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Huh? There it only says that the minimum age for army service is 20. It mentions nothing about a maximum age, which was my original question. (U'le'ho'ir, that the Rashi in Shemos 30:14 appears almost identical to the Rashi later in Bamidbor 1:3, ve'yesh le'ayein bameh chalukim.)
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Unread 03-08-2007, 05:24 PM   #9
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Sorry....didn't realize you wanted the maximum age, too. I'll try to find it.
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Unread 03-08-2007, 10:47 PM   #10
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Thanks, but no need, as I already found the source, and quoted it in post #3 above, based on the posuk, "Vayehi ka'asher tamu kol anshei hamilchomo lomus." But if you find an additional source, please let me know.
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Unread 03-08-2007, 10:55 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613 View Post
Legofo shel inyon, the gezeira of dying within the 40 years was on those less than 60 and over 20, which would imply that this was the age of tzovo.
don't have a gemoro in from of me, but isn't this a machloikes rashbam and tosfos in baba basra if those over 60 were included in the gezeira? i might be wrong, (relying on memory from mesivta 7 years ago).
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Unread 03-09-2007, 12:28 AM   #12
Torah613
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Don't know about a machlokes, but see Rishonim יבמות עא עמוד ב.
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Unread 03-09-2007, 12:29 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
Thanks, but no need, as I already found the source, and quoted it in post #3 above, based on the posuk, "Vayehi ka'asher tamu kol anshei hamilchomo lomus." But if you find an additional source, please let me know.
Did you look up the Rashi I quoted?
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Unread 03-09-2007, 12:49 AM   #14
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don't have a gemoro in from of me, but isn't this a machloikes rashbam and tosfos in baba basra if those over 60 were included in the gezeira? i might be wrong, (relying on memory from mesivta 7 years ago).
sorry no machlokes. they both agree that the geezeira wasn'n nigzar on those over 60. they argue on a different point if they could have gotten nachala twice (mitzad yotzei mitzrayim and mitzad bo'ei ho'oretz). baba basra 117b rashbam tosfos d"h hoyo mikan umikan.

i c that ramban bshem horaavad holds the same in yevamos. which was probably kavonas torah613. thanks torah for the mare mokom.
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Unread 03-09-2007, 09:08 AM   #15
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ורשב"א וריטב"א שם
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Unread 03-09-2007, 01:43 PM   #16
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only had a ramban at hand. i assume the point is probably the same.
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