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Unread 05-09-2002, 01:31 PM   #1
Mordechai
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Serving Hashem For Reward?

WHAT IS THE LUBAVITCH STANCE ON DOING MITVOT VIS A VIE A REWARD YESTERDAYS HAYOM YOM(25 OF IYAR) STATED THAT EVENTHOUGH THE REWARD OF A MITZVA IS A MITZVAH THE MITZVAH IN ITS ULTIMATE STATE IS THE REWARD!

BUT IT SAYS IN YUD CHES KISLEV THE STORY WITH THE ALTER REBBE ABOUT HOW HE DOESNT WANT OLAM HABAH,GAN EDEN(ELYON,TACHTON,GILUYIM JUST THE EYBISHTER ALAIN
WHATS THE DIFFERANCE OR ARE THEY THE SAME .


WHY DO WE DO MITVOT??
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Unread 05-09-2002, 01:53 PM   #2
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We do Mitzvos because they gives us a Tzavsa Vechibur, a connection, with Hashem.

Both of those statements are one and the same. Fulfilling a Mitzvah for its own sake is to fulfill it for Hashem Himself, and no further goals.
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Unread 05-09-2002, 02:19 PM   #3
Jude
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just a comment: Bittul states the deeper, Chasidic understanding of mitzvos.
The rest of the frum world does mitzvos in order to earn a good place in Gan Eden.
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Unread 05-09-2002, 04:50 PM   #4
Mordechai
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bittul
We do Mitzvos because they gives us a Tzavsa Vechibur, a connection, with Hashem.

Both of those statements are one and the same. Fulfilling a Mitzvah for its own sake is to fulfill it for Hashem Himself, and no further goals.

But the alter rebbe says over there in those mamorim about getting a reward is the reward the conection??


re judes statemant:
i know this is a chabad forum not a misnagdisheh one . believe me i know!!!!!!!!!!!
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Unread 05-09-2002, 05:05 PM   #5
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Let's look at the Hayom Yom.

Among the Alter Rebbe's maamarim of 5555 (1795) in Lyozna: "The reward of a mitzva is the mitzva." The mitzva in its ultimate essence - state is the reward. The revelation of this essence will take place in the Time to Come. This is the "enduring principal of the mitzva." However, man also "eats of its fruits in This World," each mitzva according to its particular nature; i.e. when man has that particular need, he is answered.

Discussing the reward of the mitzvos doesn't mean that you are doing them for that reward. The admonition to not serve G-d in order to get a reward is in Pirkei Avos; it's not a chiddush of Chassidus.

The point of that Hayom Yom is that although the reward of the mitzvah, the essence of the mitzvah itself, will not be revealed until after Moshiach comes, there is still a reward of a different kind in this world, right now.
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Unread 05-09-2002, 05:13 PM   #6
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how do misnagdim explain the mishna - be like those who serve not for the sake of a reward?
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Unread 05-09-2002, 09:56 PM   #7
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" the rest of the frum world serves Hashem for a good place in Gan Eden"...
Jude, any way you can elaborate?
Let's not be so simplistic-
if you discuss this with a Litvishe/ortho/etc Jew i am sure he will not give you Gan eden as his incentive to serve G-d!!!! Please!
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Unread 05-10-2002, 12:50 AM   #8
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BS"D <<We do Mitzvos because they gives us a Tzavsa Vechibur, a connection, with Hashem. Both of those statements are one and the same. Fulfilling a Mitzvah for its own sake is to fulfill it for Hashem Himself, and no further goals.>>

I very much disagree, bittul. In many sichos it is explained how ulitimately, to do a mitsvah lishmo (for its own sake) means simply because Hashem commanded to do so, and not in order to receive ANY reward, not even "sechar mitsvoh, mitsvoh" (i.e. the pleasure the Neshomo will have after Moshiach comes from the flow of G-dliness it drew down into the world before the Ge'ulah).

Except that, as the Rambam explains at length in Shemona Perakim, noone can start by serving Hashem lishma. There MUST be lo lishma motivations first, and to a certain extent, for a non-Tsaddik, one's entire life.

Except that there are numerous levels in lo lishma. As Chassidim and especially Chabad Chassidim, we have been taught that the right approach is to elevate ourselves by trying to focus on the higher levels of lo lishma e.g. Tzavsa Vechibur, although we ought to remind ourselves of the lower levels also when necessary.
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Unread 05-10-2002, 03:47 PM   #9
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<<if you discuss this with a Litvishe/ortho/etc Jew i am sure he will not give you Gan eden as his incentive to serve G-d!!!! >>

wanna bet?
been there, lived there, heard that

and Noahidelaws: the Besht came to show that Rambam's premise was true for his time, but no longer ...
The Besht's radical chidush was that every Jew can serve Hashem selflessly.
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Unread 05-10-2002, 04:11 PM   #10
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Its amazing how different the attitude by lubavitch is and by litvish. But i think that's bc they havent learned chassidus yet. Once you learn chassidus, you realize that there's alot more to life than getting rewarded.

Seriously, they really do do mitzvos bc of getting Gan Eden. I know plenty of people who will say "I just got myself a good share in olam haba-i forced myself to be nice to someone who is a nebachcase."
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Unread 05-11-2002, 04:25 AM   #11
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BS"D <<Noahidelaws: the Besht came to show that Rambam's premise was true for his time, but no longer ...
The Besht's radical chidush was that every Jew can serve Hashem selflessly>>

source?
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Unread 05-12-2002, 01:19 PM   #12
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Kuntrus Toras Ha'Chasidus
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Unread 05-05-2003, 03:05 PM   #13
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There is a fantastic sicha in Vol 20 Lech lecha about lishma and lo lishma. The Rebbe explains how even learning to be a godol is still considered lishma. So even the snags are learning lishma!!!
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Unread 05-05-2003, 03:41 PM   #14
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I'll have to look that up and see how it fits with Tanya chapter 39 where it says, "However, when one engages [in divine service] explicitly not lishma, but for an ulterior motive of self-glorification as for example, in order to become a talmid chacham and the like, then this motive, which is derived from kelipas noga, clothes itself in his Torah study, and the Torah [studied for this motive] is in a state of galus within the kelipa ..."
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Unread 05-06-2003, 11:40 AM   #15
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": the Besht came to show that Rambam's premise was true for his time, but no longer ...
The Besht's radical chidush was that every Jew can serve Hashem selflessly."

Sheer nonsense, and sinful to attribute such rubbish to the Baal Shem Tov, ch"v.
a. What Noahide cites from Rambam appears in his Hilchot Teshuvah - (sefer halachot halachot!), and is universaly accepted, not only as halachah and guidance in mitzvat chinuch, but plain common sense.
b. Principle of reward and punishment is one of the 13 Principles of the Faith.
c. The highest level one can achieve on one's own is yirah ila'ah - in which there are numerous levels (even as there are in yirah tataah and ahavah zutah), attained by tzadikim. Ultimate ahavah comes only as avodat matanah eten et kehunatchem, as a Divine gift.
d. Totally selfless avodah is humanly impossible. There is always some ulterior motive, concept of "yesh mi she'ohev" explained at length in Tanya, Torah Or and Likutei Torah.
e. Re Baal Shem Tov, all it says in Torat Hachassidut is that he opened the channel enabling every single Jew to serve Hashem with ahavah veyirah.
f. In spite of the ideal stated by Antignos (in milei dechassiduta!!!), there is nothing wrong with having in mind s'char ve'onesh. On the contrary: halevai, wish that it were that people are conscious of of this ikkar be'emunah and lived by it, and as R. Yochanan ben Zakai stated in his "farewell-blessing" to his disciples.
It's all fine and good to talk about ultimate ideals, but it is sanctimonious double-talk, fuelled by self-righteous triumphalism and xenophobia to knock others, when even RYbZ's words are ignored, and even the minimal aspect of the numerous levels in lishmah is missing. Even the oft-cited argument of doing mitzvot etc. for the sake of bringing Moshiach is crudely shelo lishmah, an ulterior motive which lacks the basic kabalat ol malchut Shamayim
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Unread 05-06-2003, 11:49 AM   #16
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Quote:
Even though the Rebbe says (Sefer Ha'Sichos 5750, vol. 2, sicha parshas Shemini on p. 404) that a Jew will receives Gan Eden for the mitzvos that he did, for Gan Eden is a reward for one's avoda in olam ha'zeh, and this helps a Jew fulfill his avoda in olam ha'zeh and to strengthen himself against the enticements of the yetzer and to face the challenges in this physical world, knowing that he will receive a reward in Gan Eden -

still, as the Rebbe says (Sefer Ha'Sichos 5748, vol. 2 parshas Shemini, p. 408) our actions and avoda, whether inyanei avoda regarding oneself or inyanei avoda regarding others, must be chadurim v'naasim l'sheim matara v'tachlis achas - permeated and done for the sake of one goal and purpose, to bring about "the purpose and perfection of Yemos Ha'Moshiach and Techiyas Ha'Meisim ... the gilui Ohr Ein Sof in this physical world."
Quote:
Likutei Sichos, vol. 1

"...A Jew doesn't care about chumriyus (coarse physicality), nor about gashmius (physicality), and in the essence of his soul he doesn't even care about a spiritual prize and reward, nor even the highest levels of spiritual reward. A Jew cares only about Hashem Himself. And as we said before that even the highest levels in the Upper Gan Eden are merely an illumination and are incomparable to Essence."
RebLazer:

Quote:
Chasidim have been educated to strive to fulfil the Mishnah's dictum: al tiyu ke'avadim... Anyone who has ever been on mivtza'im knows the approach: appeal to the sublime in the person--not his selfishness, albeit a spiritual selfishness.

And no one has made any claims to perfection, as far as I could deduce. Neither explicit nor implicit. On the contrary, as the Rebbe would often remark that each one knows in his heart where he stands.
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Unread 05-06-2003, 11:54 AM   #17
Yankel Nosson
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChachChach
Seriously, they really do do mitzvos bc of getting Gan Eden. I know plenty of people who will say "I just got myself a good share in olam haba-i forced myself to be nice to someone..."
I've heard it called (derogatorily) the "mitzva-chase."

Reminds me the story of the Rabbi who was sick and was visited by one of his talmidim. The talmid said he was happy to be able to fulfill the mitzvah of bikur cholim. To which his Rabbi responded by telling him to leave--"I don't want to be your lulav!" (that is to say, an inanimate object one uses in the performance of a mitzvah)
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Unread 05-06-2003, 12:11 PM   #18
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And how is that different from the person who doesn't want to be part of the Lubavitcher's "mivtza campaign"?
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Unread 05-06-2003, 12:24 PM   #19
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There are two types of 'loh lishmo'
On one it states in the Talmud 'leolom yaasok odom betoroh umetzvos shol lishmoh shemitoch shloh lishmo bah lishmoh' i.e one should serve hashem even to be rewarded because eventually it will lead to altruistic service. On the other hand it is stated that the reason Elisha be avuyah became a rasha was that his father once saw the power of torah while watching two rabbis discussing torah and seeing a 'fire' he than said he wanted his son to become a talmid chochom so he should also have that power.He ended up becoming a talmid chochom but a rasha too! This is discussed in tosfos in a number of places.
I
find it a bit strange when the 'attitude' I see on the board is 'We are better than those other jews, we serve Hashem altruistically!'
This is the epitomy of 'Gaavah' and 'loh lishma'

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Unread 05-06-2003, 12:33 PM   #20
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rebyid,

if the lubavitcher bochur takes a jew and tells him to please put on teffilin because i want to be able to tell the rebbe that i got alot of people to put on teffilin etc. then i dont think the jew is going to want to don the teffilin. if its not for the yids benefit and with that feeling then it wont go over well. the point of Y.N. story (which BTW is a great one) is that the student did not come to the teacher because he felt the teachers need but his own and therefore the teacher told him get lost.
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Unread 05-06-2003, 12:45 PM   #21
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So when a bochur does mivtzoim to "give the Rebbe nachas ruach", then it's the same as the above story?
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Unread 05-06-2003, 02:01 PM   #22
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i think its possible to have both intensions at the same time. ahavas yisroel to that yid and to give the rebbe a nachas ruach. but i would suggest that when talking to the yid the former intention should be expressed rather then the latter. with the story, i wonder if the student thought about his teacher, if he did then he should not have talked to his teacher about the "Mitzvah".
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Unread 05-06-2003, 04:35 PM   #23
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For whatever it's worth (certainly can't vouch for accuracy) - the story was told about a certain rosh yeshiva in Boro Park who was a Brisker, who called to visit the Bluzhever Rebbe. The Bl. Rebbe said, "I don't want to be your cheftza shel mitzva.

the point being, that when getting caught up in the technicalities of mitzva observance, you can forget the part of actually feeling compassion when another Jew is suffering.
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Unread 12-07-2003, 01:24 PM   #24
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Vayetze 5748

One of the things that was revealed in Toras Ha’Chassidus is how great “our actions and avoda” is, to the point that (Tanya 37) “the purpose and perfection of Yemos Ha’Moshiach and Techiyas Ha’Meisim which is the “gilui Ohr Ein Sof boruch Hu in this physical world, is dependent on our actions and avoda throughout galus, because that which generates the reward of the mitzva is the mitzva itself,” i.e. our “actions and avoda” are not the means through which the Geula comes, but they draw down “a gilui Ohr Ein Sof boruch Hu from Above down below to be enclothed in the physicality of the world,” and this is Yemos Ha’Moshiach – “gilui Ohr Ein Sof boruch Hu in the physical world.”
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Unread 12-16-2003, 08:34 AM   #25
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I've thought about this often...doing mitsvot for the right reason or with good intention. But really, its those who are on the receiving end of your mitsvot that truely appreciate the act of kindness. They are not concerned "why" or your intention.., all they know is an act of kindness, goodness, was given them. Every mtsvot makes the world alittle sweeter. A wise teacher once said, "the laborer is worthy of his wages." If good is the final result, it make no differance as to the intent.
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