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Unread 05-27-2003, 03:16 PM   #1
Gevurah
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Hillel Shammai - Nimna Nimnaos

see

http://chabad.org/magazine/article.asp?AID=78129

see for example

Is this third stage the Rebbe's Chiddush?

When did he first make it if so?

That Shammai/Gevurah- Arizal is the source...fine..I know that.
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Unread 05-27-2003, 10:39 PM   #2
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I think the article gives a wrong impression. We won't do the Mitzvos like both Hillel and Shamai. Rather, in that time we won't do the Mitzvos in deed. Then, we will be able to appreciate both opinions, for both are true and both are the will of G-d. "Both this one and that one are the words of the Living G-d" and it is known that Chassidus is called "the words of the Living G-d." At this level--how the laws of the Torah reveal G-d to us, they are both true. The distinction only begins when we need to choose one side to act like for everyone.

Either way, this is not entirely new, although it may not have been expressed so clearly before, only implied. The idea that halachos will remain in this way, even after the performance of the Mitzvos stops is discussed in Shaarei Orah, about how Mordechai is will not be nullified. I think there is also related discussion in the siddur on birchas hamazon. I'm sure you could also find earlier sources in the Alter Rebbe's earlier maamarim, as well as the works of the Baal Shem Tov and Maggid, only that those works are often cryptic without the explanations of the post Petersburg Chassidus.
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Unread 05-28-2003, 08:05 AM   #3
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Quote:
I think the article gives a wrong impression
you want to edit the Rebbe or S imon Jacobson et al

Quote:
Either way, this is not entirely new, although it may not have been expressed so clearly before, only implied
I want to know when the Rebbe first said that there will be a stage after halacha k'Beis Hillel (Gemara) after halacha kbeis Shammai (shetht somewhere (?) in Arizal) with Nimna Nimaos like both
exact sicha...and if he was the first to say it like this...or who was close....

not vagueries....and poetics
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Unread 05-28-2003, 08:29 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gevurah
not vagueries....and poetics
Not vagueries and poetics...like most of your own vague and poetic posts, Gevurah?
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Unread 05-28-2003, 11:12 AM   #5
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switch the letters of gevurah and you get something close to vaguerie. Ah, the real pshat!
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Unread 05-28-2003, 11:19 AM   #6
masbir
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Gevureh,

You are right, the Rebeb said something quite novel there.

What makes you think, that that wasnt the time the Rebe said it first?

I didnt understand what Chasidos wrote that it was said before, maybe he can quote sources..
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Unread 05-28-2003, 11:25 AM   #7
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Thanx for some real response

I saw the same comment in the fat Hadranim al Rambam sefer. nogaya Channukah
Maybe it was the same sicha; maybe it was earlier but I could not get to the sefer the past few nights...its in semi-storage.
I thought it was earlier
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Unread 05-28-2003, 03:21 PM   #8
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Quote:
switch the letters of gevurah and you get something close to vaguerie. Ah, the real pshat!
you are a bit confused.....tzirufim.... TZOHAR comes from TZARAH

so GEVURAH from VAGARY is clarification not similar blurriness...
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Unread 05-28-2003, 03:22 PM   #9
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I still want to know if this is a CHIDDUSH OF THE REBBE....

I tend to doubt it....
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Unread 05-28-2003, 03:29 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gevurah
you are a bit confused.....tzirufim.... TZOHAR comes from TZARAH

so GEVURAH from VAGARY is clarification not similar blurriness...
Adaraba...from GEVURAH we get VAGARY!
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Unread 05-29-2003, 08:18 AM   #11
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YN...you simply do not understand tzirufim in chassidus. Gevurah is not a synonym for vagary or vice versa......if you are going to try to be funny at least use terminology correctly.


Masbir...The Hadran in the Hadran book is the same 5752 as above w/o any footnote as to where this is from.

Moreover, I started looking at "Torah Chadasha" 5751 and this third stage is not discussed there AT ALL...only 2 stages...
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Unread 05-29-2003, 08:26 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gevurah
YN...you simply do not understand tzirufim in chassidus. Gevurah is not a synonym for vagary or vice versa......if you are going to try to be funny at least use terminology correctly.
I'm only reporting on the metzius, my testy friend: from the posts of GEVURAH we get many VAGUE postings. Surely this is not a chiddush, nor does it require ruach hakodesh. In fact, methinks it is a purposeful affectation, eh wot?
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Unread 05-29-2003, 11:16 AM   #13
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Masbir..ignore YN's banter.......

see the Or Hatorah/Midrash Shmuel...sort of says need both at same time but not same lashon as 5752 hadran.....

Comments please from the Mochins here?
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Unread 05-29-2003, 12:12 PM   #14
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see siddur Maharid volume 2 p.348 sof daf

still...
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Unread 05-29-2003, 08:34 PM   #15
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Okay, I will really make you happy (Bsimcha Ubnimous).

Look in Shalo Maamor Beis dovid, beis dalet, from Avodes hakodesh.

See also Maamorei ADHZ TKSG in the bgeining the maamorim on Mileh.
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Unread 05-30-2003, 08:31 AM   #16
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first reference...i have a cd rom here..what are you referring to. am not sure.

second:I do not have ready access...please...
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Unread 05-30-2003, 09:23 AM   #17
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Shaloh - Beis CHochma quoting AVodas Hakodesh chapter 23 ....chelek hatachlis...???
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Unread 06-02-2003, 07:37 AM   #18
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Quote:
See also Maamorei ADHZ TKSG in the bgeining the maamorim on Mileh
I got a copy from p.10-25

Skimmed quickly and I do not see a direct addressing like the Rebbe does.

Many interesting points are all there and I should learn it but....
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Unread 06-02-2003, 10:49 PM   #19
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The main refrence was to Sleh Beis Dovid where he brings AH's view on Elue Velue, I dodnt undersatnd why you cnat locate a real shlo.

The AR maamer is just desert, with a similar concept.
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Unread 06-03-2003, 07:02 AM   #20
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I did then.

sweets are fine but

then are you saying that this third nimna nimnaos stage where both B"H and B"S are true is a chiddush of that hadran of 5752....not said before by the Rebbe or anyother rebbe or anyone?
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Unread 06-03-2003, 11:13 PM   #21
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See also, maamar Yaviyu Halevush in Shaarei Orah, from Paragraph 11 to 14, and the Freidiker Rebbe's Kitzurim on them. This point expressed there is seemingly the same--although more bikitzur and some of it in terms of Chassidus.
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Unread 06-04-2003, 07:51 AM   #22
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http://www.chassidus.org.ru/chabadli...orah/index.htm

same numbering. explain please then.
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