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Unread 05-14-2003, 10:54 AM   #26
pretzel999
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In Satmer they only educate the girls with general yiras shomaim....and look at the results
and what are the results?.................
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Allright Jude clarfication:
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If you do not give girls a Torah education they will not appreciate their heritage and it can be that they R"L will go off the derech.
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And I heard from my father that you takeh have a higher percentage of Satmer girls going off the derech.
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That is what I meant with "and look at the results".
So it was not meant as a compliment...(suiting the partisan nature of some)Rabbi, a couple of problems with your post: Firstly, it is totally not true.It is basicaLLy unheard of a Satmar alumnus becoming non religous, this may very well be due to the emphasis on yiras shomayim and tznius taught to the girls, but also the intense peer pressure to get married at 18 and the almost non existent exposure to television and movies. There are almost no girls past twenty not married, so basically there is no time to rebel and become 'frei'
Also your using your dad as a (secondary)source is quite strange. Without anybody knowing your father what credentials does it add to the topic?? btw if hamaor is the source, than you might want to 'buy a long bridge in Brooklyn'!lol
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Unread 05-14-2003, 08:20 PM   #27
hishtatchus
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Rebyid- I must say I agree with you that learning for girls should be more in the Beis Medrash style. That's the way Yidden have been learning for years, and even according to secular psychology it is a superior method. I could go on about why, but Jude will tell me to switch threads .

Beshaas Maaseh, I learned far more from Chavrusa classes than from frontal teaching. The highest level of Tzedaka is by giving the Oni a job, that he can be self-supporting. There's no better way to learn these skills than to practice.

Last edited by hishtatchus; 06-03-2003 at 12:07 AM.
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Unread 06-02-2003, 02:14 PM   #28
Chabadnika
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Originally posted by RebYid
What I never understood is why is the approach to girl's learning different from boys. Even if we accept that all girls, as a matter of course, will not be learning Gemora and Tosafos be'iyun - why can't they learn Tanach, SA, Chassidus etc, be'chavrusa in a Bias Medrash, like boys.

From my experience, when it comes to memory, language skills etc, the girls will soon outshine the boys.
Why should girls not be learning Gemara and Tosafos b'iyun?!?!?!
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Unread 06-02-2003, 09:26 PM   #29
mordechai7215
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Why should girls not be learning Gemara and Tosafos b'iyun?!?!?!
I'm not sure. In fact a high school Rebbe of mine once said that while his wife was growing up the town she lived in had only one Jewish school, which was for boys. His wife was in the class (I'm not sure of her age, though I belive it was rather young), and the teacher, who wasn't a Lubavitcher, raised a fuss when they started learning Gemara. Her familly called (I belive) R. Devorkin a"h, and he said they shouldn't worry about it.

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why can't they learn . . . be'chavrusa in a Bias Medrash, like boys.
Someone once asked the Rebbe if when women davned they could have one act as a chazan (not for Chazaras hashatz, barchu etc). The Rebbe replied that apparently he didn't know how Reform Judiaism had started.

Perhaps the same holds true here.

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Give a man a fish, feed him for a day; teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime."
Hishtatchus, just so you know what you quoted from isn't exactly a Jewish source (not that the idea isn't one sourced in Torah . . .)

Last edited by mordechai7215; 06-02-2003 at 09:36 PM.
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Unread 06-02-2003, 09:32 PM   #30
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The source for what hishtatchus said is Lao Tzu, but a similar thing appears in the Rambam's discussion of the different levels of tzedakah.
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Unread 06-02-2003, 09:35 PM   #31
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that's what I had in mind to say, my post has been amended accordingly
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Unread 06-03-2003, 12:05 AM   #32
hishtatchus
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[Paranthetical to this discussion, but thank you Lambda and Mordechai for pointing that out. I'll change it now. ]
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Unread 06-03-2003, 06:36 PM   #33
Chabadnika
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Can someone please give a reason that women shouldn't learn Gemara with Rashi and Tosafos b'iyun?
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Unread 06-03-2003, 06:43 PM   #34
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Gezunteheit - learn!
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Unread 06-03-2003, 06:56 PM   #35
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Take a look at the Rambam at the end of Perek Aleph in Hilchos Talmud Torah.

Some understand him to mean that women can't learn Torah She'Baal Peh.

Others understand it to mean just what it says: That it is ossur for a man to teach his daughter Torah She'Baal Peh, k'derech he teaches his son, but that if a woman wants to learn on her own, she gets sachar, but not like a man.
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Unread 06-03-2003, 07:07 PM   #36
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Did anyone reference the sicha of Emor 5750 yet?
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Unread 06-03-2003, 07:17 PM   #37
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I guess my question is on a broader scale-why isn't Gemara taught b'iyun in Lubavitch girls' schools?
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Unread 06-03-2003, 08:28 PM   #38
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That's a question for the Hanhalos...

I would assume that part of the problem is that girls first open a Gemora in 12th grade. They don't have any background in Mishna, Shakla Vetarya, or Aramaic. The teacher has an option to teach them third grade level Gemara basics, or get through a couple Daf conceptually. Most (all?) choose the second option.
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Unread 06-03-2003, 08:35 PM   #39
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<<< I guess my question is on a broader scale-why isn't Gemara taught b'iyun in Lubavitch girls' schools? >>>

Because forcing girls to learn Torah She'Baal Peh (which is what you do when you put it in a school curriculum) is what Chazal were metzaveh not to do. When a father sends his children to a yeshiva/school, he is fulfilling his chiyuvim of chinuch and Talmud Torah, as it applies. If he sent his daughter to a school where Torah She'Baal Peh is taught in the curriculum, he would be violating the tzivui Chazal "Ossur l'lameid es bito..."
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Unread 06-03-2003, 09:08 PM   #40
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Spoken like a true maskil - see the aforementioned sicha.
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Unread 06-04-2003, 08:15 AM   #41
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I haven't seen Chassidim apply this sicha in the sense that fathers are learning gemara with their daughters and wives etc, or that the curricula changed the next week at BR. Are the BCM's zealous in being mekayeim the pashtus of the sicha re: gemara?

(Although I have heard it said that when post-HS girls learn these complex Rambans etc in seminary that they are learning "gemara" according to the Rambam's definition in Perek Aleph.)
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Unread 06-04-2003, 08:29 AM   #42
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Mepi hashmuah - some L HS's/seminaries have a class in Gemmoroh (I don't know for sure - can anyone confirm/deny?). In light of the Rebbe's sicha, are they (or the parents that send them there) "violating the tzivui Chazal "Ossur l'lameid es bito..." " - as you wrote?
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Unread 06-04-2003, 11:11 AM   #43
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First of all, I would appreciate if you could clarify the m'pi ha'shmua. There's Gemara and there's gemara. Are they learning Aggadta etc. or are they shteiging in Hamafkid etc. ?

Secondly, it's not my view. It's the Rambam's. If the Rebbe in fact said that the Rambam no longer applies in this instance because they need the shakla v'taria to compensate for all the chochmas chitzonis they're getting anyway m'eizeh ta'am she'iyhieh, then that's fine for any chossid obviously. It would fall in the same category as the other halachos p'sukos that chassidim are "meikil" on for assorted reasons: Eating before davening, davening after the zman, Shalosh Seudos etc.
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Unread 06-04-2003, 02:36 PM   #44
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Torah- yes I can confirm that several high schools (usually 12th grade only) and many seminaries teach Gemara at some level.

One high school I know did the whole date of Shavuos section (don't remember what it was called), although apparently it was just the teacher Shteiging aloud...

I heard another high school did just the sections from Sanhedrin dealing with Moshiach.

I've only ever heard of girls doing Hamafkid in Mishna...
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Unread 06-04-2003, 02:46 PM   #45
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12th grade? Then apparently they don't have the same koch as the MO schools that totally equalize it, in accordance with R'Soloveitchik's shitta.
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Unread 06-04-2003, 02:53 PM   #46
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No, there's no Koch. It seems to be more of a "Yotze zain" issue.
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Unread 06-04-2003, 06:33 PM   #47
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I once helped a cousin of mine in seminary on the gemoro in soif pesochim if birchas hazevach poiteres shel pesach. And it certainly seemed like a thing they were doing just "tzu yoitzei zain".
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Unread 06-04-2003, 06:56 PM   #48
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"tzu yoitzei zain" what??
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Unread 06-04-2003, 08:50 PM   #49
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The Rebbe's horaah
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Unread 06-05-2003, 01:46 AM   #50
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I've heard of a few girls high schools that teach gemorah in even 10th and 11th grades. Not lubavitch ones as well.
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