Going to College / University - Page 4 - Jewish Forum & Discussions

ChachChach · 08-16-2002, 05:42 PM

<<Parents are obligated to provide for their children until they marry them off. They (the father) are supposed to teach their sons a trade, and their sons-in-law are supposed to provide for their wives, as it says in the kesuba.>>

Jude, you raise an interesting point here. But dont the bochrim usually learn or go on shlichus until they get married? What about the bochrim who arent going on shlichus-when are they supposed to learn a trade? If they dont have any working knowledge, then its usually up to the wife to provide a parnassa

<<In my experience in school, those who got good marks, got them in both Heb. and Eng. Can you analyze it? Were the secular studies teachers far more qualified? Was it them, or was it you?
>>

I dont find it odd at all. Haven you noticed that some people excell in different areas? For example, someone might love numbers (math), but doenst have the head to sit and memorize chassidus. There isnt a contradiction there at all.

hishtatchus · 08-16-2002, 05:54 PM

Jude- re "what your Shlichus is", IMHO, Shlichus is essentially dealing with people, basically face to face. If you are not good at that, finding a niche for your Shlichus besides menial labor can be a challenge.

Jude · 08-16-2002, 06:02 PM

as far as the bachurim who learn/shlichus until they get married, some actually make money doing various shlichus things, chazan Yamim Noraim, etc. but anyway, in the case of Lubavitchers, I think the Rebbe made it very clear that he expects, hopes, wants his Chasidim to make shlichus their "trade", their esek.

<<Haven't you noticed that some people excell in different areas?>>

sure! What I find strange is excelling in ALL secular subjects, which include so many different areas (English, math, science), while not doing well in limudei kodesh.

<<Shlichus is essentially dealing with people, basically face to face.>>

that's true for many (most?) shlichus positions, but not all. There are many behind the scenes people, for example those who work on various websites, and those who write and work in publishing.

hishtatchus · 08-17-2002, 11:59 PM

Takeh, but where do these "behind the scenes" people get their training? It's nice to think that they picked it all up, but it usually ain't that simple!

Jude · 08-18-2002, 10:28 AM

the bachur who started Moshiach.com "picked it up," and I don't think Rabbi Kazen a'h had any formal training either ... did Rabbi Avtzon of Sichos in English go to college? somehow, I doubt it, though I don't know

it's true, not everybody can do that ... sometimes what works is, "apprenticing" with someone in the know. In other words, it's not necessary to go through four years of college with all sorts of courses that having nothing to do with what you actually want to know (besides all the other problems with college), when you can train with someone who can show you JUST what you need to know

hishtatchus · 08-18-2002, 03:13 PM

I hate to disillusion you...
but apprenticeships went out of style in the 18th century. I can't walk up to a professional and ask to learn his trade- he'll answer- logically- "I went to college for 4 years to learn this. You go too!"

Besides- "just what you need to know" is very vague... Math is necessary for computers, as is mechanics, which uses chemistry and physics... A college education is supposed to give you a well-rounded look at ALL of the aspects of your chosen major.

Can a person audit courses (take classes without getting credit for them) which he feels necessary for his profession?

Jude · 08-18-2002, 06:04 PM

<<A college education is supposed to give you a well-rounded look at ALL of the aspects of your chosen major. >>

and what does that have to do with shlichus?

disagree about apprenticeships, there are situations in which you can learn "on the job," or work your way up
how about actually picking up the phone and calling people like R' Avtzon and others you can think of, and asking them - how did you do it.
I think the question (like in another thread) is one of ratzon. If you are determined to find a shlichus opportunity that suits you, you will find it. If you're halfhearted, or your heart is not really in it, you won't.

hishtatchus · 08-18-2002, 06:17 PM

Like I think I mentioned, I DID find a Shlichus that I think will work for me. Graphic design, to repeat myself. My problem is that it needs to pay for itself, because I refuse to fundraise to support myself. Not everyone can do that, though! If I had not been in a Yeshiva with photo-editing software, I'd be really stuck right now.

Jude · 08-18-2002, 06:28 PM

Okay, you're right, I went back and you did indeed say you found a shlichus. It's just that you sounded so hesitant and were asking ... In going to that original post I see that the question is a "if ...then" question. "If" it doesn't work out, then ...??

Furthermore, it sounds like you would really rather be in college, but then - college costs money, and your point seems to be that you need money NOW ...

Also, about college - have you read through the Rebbe's comments about college? What do you mean by "I'd love to hear someone say "yes, go to college if you'd like to," "

Is this a bitachon issue? Like needing to have the bitachon that this shlichus will be successful?

maybe I'd better quit while I'm not ahead

Just trying to hear what the questions are, maybe offer some other questions, food for thought ...

hishtatchus · 08-18-2002, 06:52 PM

SOK, Jude, no insult intended.

You're right, I'm a little bit belligerent about what I want to do. But I'll answer you, and don't quit- you may be answering some other lost soul who's just surfing...

With the money, hey- ever tried to get a loan? Not difficult to get a loan for education. How bout a small business loan? 25 times harder- unless you've been working for years and are making enough money to pay it off (I feel like a couple who want to rent an apartment only to be told that they need to have a history of renting first...).

Yes, I read what the Rebbe said about college. However, secular knowledge is a big Taiva for me, and since I have the cheshek and the talent, why don't I just go? I think that Shluchim could benefit from the work I did if I was properly trained.

Bitachon...? Probably deep down. I'll ask my Mashpia- when I find one!

As for the food for thought- I have plenty- thanks for taking my questions seriously and answering honestly. You've planted some seeds!

Jude · 08-18-2002, 07:18 PM

glad you think some of it's worthwhile

<<and since I have the cheshek and the talent, why don't I just go?>>

what a line!!

vusveisichuber · 08-18-2002, 10:34 PM

Just a small point - there are quite a few "frum" schools that are accredited and have "degree" programs, and they teach what is specifically necessary for your chosen career. I don't know where you are, but in NY and LA there are many, and financial consideration isn't an issue with them - they more or less guarantee that they can get you grants or loans. As you learn only what you need, the school time is much shorter, so it is much easier on your personal finances too. Just a thought.

Jude · 08-19-2002, 11:31 AM

yeah, but do they train shluchim/shluchos?

vusveisichuber · 08-19-2002, 04:43 PM

I seem to understand that the person wants to develop their natural abilities to be used for shlichus, while at the same time having a parnoso.

Jude · 08-19-2002, 04:45 PM

sounds more like ambivalence about shlichus, and wanting a college education for two main reasons 1) likes secular studies and is good at them 2) parnasa

hishtatchus · 08-20-2002, 12:23 AM

I like the way vusveisich puts it

better,
but Jude- you're probably more accurate unfortunately. Although I'm still not 100% clear why it's not OK for a Lubavitcher to aspire to become a doctor...

RebYid · 08-20-2002, 12:33 AM

You aspire to be a doctor??? Heaven help us!!

hishtatchus · 08-20-2002, 01:32 AM

First of all I didn't say I do...

Second of all- what would be wrong with it?

(And Rebyid- I won't be insulted- what makes you think it's such a bad idea? I'm curious!

)

RebYid · 08-20-2002, 01:47 AM

Think about it, but think REALLY hard!!

hishtatchus · 08-20-2002, 02:47 AM

I have thought about it. I'm basically just going around in circles, though. Maybe you could elaborate a little?

shnitzel · 01-02-2003, 01:07 AM

From here on another thread was merged. CyberLub

I heard the Rebbe said if you start college, you should finish college and if you didn't start you shouldn't go. Does anyone know the source of this and if it's true, etc?

Dr. Yisroel · 01-02-2003, 05:00 AM

I have never heard of that. Of course I am not well versed in the Igros. Perhaps, the Rebbe told one person. Since he was in the middle of a term as to not loose credits he should stay. Often, these things grow "beards".

The Rebbe has very set views when it comes to college.

Gevurah · 01-02-2003, 09:10 AM

doesn't every reply grow a beard. Afterall, we do not shave

shnitzel · 01-02-2003, 10:42 AM

Dr.Yisroel >The Rebbe has very set views when it comes to college.

Can you tell me about some of these?

icewolf770 · 01-02-2003, 11:20 AM

yes but what about someone who is older who wants to go back to college? does the same rules applly?

08-16-2002, 05:42 PM	#76
ChachChach Gold Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 962	<<Parents are obligated to provide for their children until they marry them off. They (the father) are supposed to teach their sons a trade, and their sons-in-law are supposed to provide for their wives, as it says in the kesuba.>> Jude, you raise an interesting point here. But dont the bochrim usually learn or go on shlichus until they get married? What about the bochrim who arent going on shlichus-when are they supposed to learn a trade? If they dont have any working knowledge, then its usually up to the wife to provide a parnassa <<In my experience in school, those who got good marks, got them in both Heb. and Eng. Can you analyze it? Were the secular studies teachers far more qualified? Was it them, or was it you? >> I dont find it odd at all. Haven you noticed that some people excell in different areas? For example, someone might love numbers (math), but doenst have the head to sit and memorize chassidus. There isnt a contradiction there at all. __________________ Siz doch altz hevel havalim-Ein od milvado! Down with politics!

08-18-2002, 10:34 PM	#87
vusveisichuber Executive Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 293	Just a small point - there are quite a few "frum" schools that are accredited and have "degree" programs, and they teach what is specifically necessary for your chosen career. I don't know where you are, but in NY and LA there are many, and financial consideration isn't an issue with them - they more or less guarantee that they can get you grants or loans. As you learn only what you need, the school time is much shorter, so it is much easier on your personal finances too. Just a thought. __________________ LA"D (Kimuvon)

08-19-2002, 04:43 PM	#89
vusveisichuber Executive Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 293	I seem to understand that the person wants to develop their natural abilities to be used for shlichus, while at the same time having a parnoso. __________________ LA"D (Kimuvon)

01-02-2003, 01:07 AM	#96
shnitzel Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 5	college frumies From here on another thread was merged. CyberLub I heard the Rebbe said if you start college, you should finish college and if you didn't start you shouldn't go. Does anyone know the source of this and if it's true, etc? __________________ We Want Moshiach NOW!!!

01-02-2003, 05:00 AM	#97
Dr. Yisroel Executive Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 313	I have never heard of that. Of course I am not well versed in the Igros. Perhaps, the Rebbe told one person. Since he was in the middle of a term as to not loose credits he should stay. Often, these things grow "beards". The Rebbe has very set views when it comes to college. __________________ Yisroel

08-16-2002, 05:54 PM	#77
hishtatchus Senior Diamond Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 2,606	Jude- re "what your Shlichus is", IMHO, Shlichus is essentially dealing with people, basically face to face. If you are not good at that, finding a niche for your Shlichus besides menial labor can be a challenge.

08-16-2002, 06:02 PM	#78
Jude Executive Platinum Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 8,345	as far as the bachurim who learn/shlichus until they get married, some actually make money doing various shlichus things, chazan Yamim Noraim, etc. but anyway, in the case of Lubavitchers, I think the Rebbe made it very clear that he expects, hopes, wants his Chasidim to make shlichus their "trade", their esek. <<Haven't you noticed that some people excell in different areas?>> sure! What I find strange is excelling in ALL secular subjects, which include so many different areas (English, math, science), while not doing well in limudei kodesh. <<Shlichus is essentially dealing with people, basically face to face.>> that's true for many (most?) shlichus positions, but not all. There are many behind the scenes people, for example those who work on various websites, and those who write and work in publishing.

08-17-2002, 11:59 PM	#79
hishtatchus Senior Diamond Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 2,606	Takeh, but where do these "behind the scenes" people get their training? It's nice to think that they picked it all up, but it usually ain't that simple!

08-18-2002, 10:28 AM	#80
Jude Executive Platinum Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 8,345	the bachur who started Moshiach.com "picked it up," and I don't think Rabbi Kazen a'h had any formal training either ... did Rabbi Avtzon of Sichos in English go to college? somehow, I doubt it, though I don't know it's true, not everybody can do that ... sometimes what works is, "apprenticing" with someone in the know. In other words, it's not necessary to go through four years of college with all sorts of courses that having nothing to do with what you actually want to know (besides all the other problems with college), when you can train with someone who can show you JUST what you need to know

08-18-2002, 03:13 PM	#81
hishtatchus Senior Diamond Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 2,606	I hate to disillusion you... but apprenticeships went out of style in the 18th century. I can't walk up to a professional and ask to learn his trade- he'll answer- logically- "I went to college for 4 years to learn this. You go too!" Besides- "just what you need to know" is very vague... Math is necessary for computers, as is mechanics, which uses chemistry and physics... A college education is supposed to give you a well-rounded look at ALL of the aspects of your chosen major. Can a person audit courses (take classes without getting credit for them) which he feels necessary for his profession?

08-18-2002, 06:04 PM	#82
Jude Executive Platinum Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 8,345	<<A college education is supposed to give you a well-rounded look at ALL of the aspects of your chosen major. >> and what does that have to do with shlichus? disagree about apprenticeships, there are situations in which you can learn "on the job," or work your way up how about actually picking up the phone and calling people like R' Avtzon and others you can think of, and asking them - how did you do it. I think the question (like in another thread) is one of ratzon. If you are determined to find a shlichus opportunity that suits you, you will find it. If you're halfhearted, or your heart is not really in it, you won't.

08-18-2002, 06:17 PM	#83
hishtatchus Senior Diamond Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 2,606	Like I think I mentioned, I DID find a Shlichus that I think will work for me. Graphic design, to repeat myself. My problem is that it needs to pay for itself, because I refuse to fundraise to support myself. Not everyone can do that, though! If I had not been in a Yeshiva with photo-editing software, I'd be really stuck right now.

08-18-2002, 06:28 PM	#84
Jude Executive Platinum Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 8,345	Okay, you're right, I went back and you did indeed say you found a shlichus. It's just that you sounded so hesitant and were asking ... In going to that original post I see that the question is a "if ...then" question. "If" it doesn't work out, then ...?? Furthermore, it sounds like you would really rather be in college, but then - college costs money, and your point seems to be that you need money NOW ... Also, about college - have you read through the Rebbe's comments about college? What do you mean by "I'd love to hear someone say "yes, go to college if you'd like to," " Is this a bitachon issue? Like needing to have the bitachon that this shlichus will be successful? maybe I'd better quit while I'm not ahead Just trying to hear what the questions are, maybe offer some other questions, food for thought ...

08-18-2002, 06:52 PM	#85
hishtatchus Senior Diamond Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 2,606	SOK, Jude, no insult intended. You're right, I'm a little bit belligerent about what I want to do. But I'll answer you, and don't quit- you may be answering some other lost soul who's just surfing... With the money, hey- ever tried to get a loan? Not difficult to get a loan for education. How bout a small business loan? 25 times harder- unless you've been working for years and are making enough money to pay it off (I feel like a couple who want to rent an apartment only to be told that they need to have a history of renting first...). Yes, I read what the Rebbe said about college. However, secular knowledge is a big Taiva for me, and since I have the cheshek and the talent, why don't I just go? I think that Shluchim could benefit from the work I did if I was properly trained. Bitachon...? Probably deep down. I'll ask my Mashpia- when I find one! As for the food for thought- I have plenty- thanks for taking my questions seriously and answering honestly. You've planted some seeds!

08-18-2002, 07:18 PM	#86
Jude Executive Platinum Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 8,345	glad you think some of it's worthwhile <<and since I have the cheshek and the talent, why don't I just go?>> what a line!!

08-19-2002, 11:31 AM	#88
Jude Executive Platinum Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 8,345	yeah, but do they train shluchim/shluchos?

08-19-2002, 04:45 PM	#90
Jude Executive Platinum Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 8,345	sounds more like ambivalence about shlichus, and wanting a college education for two main reasons 1) likes secular studies and is good at them 2) parnasa

08-20-2002, 12:23 AM	#91
hishtatchus Senior Diamond Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 2,606	I like the way vusveisich puts it better, but Jude- you're probably more accurate unfortunately. Although I'm still not 100% clear why it's not OK for a Lubavitcher to aspire to become a doctor...

08-20-2002, 12:33 AM	#92
RebYid Senior Diamond Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 2,141	You aspire to be a doctor??? Heaven help us!!

08-20-2002, 01:32 AM	#93
hishtatchus Senior Diamond Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 2,606	First of all I didn't say I do... Second of all- what would be wrong with it? (And Rebyid- I won't be insulted- what makes you think it's such a bad idea? I'm curious! )

08-20-2002, 01:47 AM	#94
RebYid Senior Diamond Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 2,141	Think about it, but think REALLY hard!!

08-20-2002, 02:47 AM	#95
hishtatchus Senior Diamond Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 2,606	I have thought about it. I'm basically just going around in circles, though. Maybe you could elaborate a little?

01-02-2003, 09:10 AM	#98
Gevurah Executive Diamond Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 3,052	doesn't every reply grow a beard. Afterall, we do not shave

01-02-2003, 10:42 AM	#99
shnitzel Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 5	Dr.Yisroel >The Rebbe has very set views when it comes to college. Can you tell me about some of these? __________________ We Want Moshiach NOW!!!

01-02-2003, 11:20 AM	#100
icewolf770 Executive Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 274	yes but what about someone who is older who wants to go back to college? does the same rules applly? __________________ ettah m.

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