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Unread 04-21-2002, 04:58 PM   #51
masbir
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In the inspirational book thread, Jude recomended many nonlubavitch books.

The sefer Chovas hatlmidim is a holy book but bnot consonant with Chabad.

Certainly not the the book: "Maggid series by P. Krohn - true, inspirational stories". If its from R' Swhadron it has stories with hidden misnagdik messages.
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Unread 04-21-2002, 06:10 PM   #52
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"hidden Misnagdik Messeges"

Masbir, can you give an exmaple what a "Hidden Misnagdik Message" is?
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Unread 04-21-2002, 06:32 PM   #53
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Jac: in answer to your question, here's one reply from the Rebbe. There are others.

<<[Reply to a shaliach's question whether to study English in order to make his shlichus of spreading Yiddishkeit easier, and to reach wider circles:]

... to waste much time now on educational advancement in English is not worthwhile for you ...

Igros Kodesh III p. 337 >>

Masbir: As I said, when I read non-Lub. books, they're read somewhat critically.
Really now, I don't think reading the Piacezna's Chovas Ha'Talmidim will have any adverse effects ... nor, the book about R' Aryeh Levin ... on the contrary
About Paysach Krohn and other lecturers, when listening to their tapes at home, I make sure to stop the tape and point out any discrepancies. This does not happen often, but it happens. P. Krohn's stories are true stories that he has verified. Most are inspirational and bring out lessons in emuna, hashgacha pratis etc. In case one wants to be careful, I think his books are "safer" than his lectures, because the lectures include his divrei Torah and personal thoughts in addition to stories, while the books are stories that really happened - draw your own conclusions.

Since he (and the others I choose) are erlicher, frum people, I have elected to "eat the fruit, and discard the shell" ...

Is this for everybody? Perhaps not, particularly if one does not know what to discard! Consult your mashpia ..

I also think that what I do as an individual is far different than a mosad sponsoring an evening's lecture for the rabbim.
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Unread 04-29-2002, 03:57 PM   #54
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How long could one survive constant shock treatment?

BS”D To learn in College is not a matter of merely learning facts. It means to be exposed to certain circles and activities that are antithetical to the values and faith of the believer. It would be like taking someone from a warm environment and casting him into cold water – “shock treatment” – several times a day. How long would he be able to survive?

In addition to this, the studies in university are set up at an age when one’s personality is not yet sufficiently developed, usually before the age of thirty, and the exposure then is more dangerous.

From a Yechidus 5715, printed in Dem Rebben’s Kinder p. 211
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Unread 04-29-2002, 04:52 PM   #55
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i can understand y girls or boys arnt sopposed to attend college after school because they should be spending their time learning jewish studies.
but once yur married and done learning and are intrested in a career is college ok?
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Unread 04-29-2002, 05:01 PM   #56
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BS"D There could be no clearer answer to that question than my last post.
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Unread 04-29-2002, 05:28 PM   #57
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<< i can understand y girls or boys arnt sopposed to attend college after school because they should be spending their time learning jewish studies.>>

Why are people exempt from learning Torah after they are married?

<<but once yur married and done learning and are intrested in a career is college ok?>>

They teach things Hepech the Torah there, and in such places one cannot attend. (As explained in previous posts)
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Unread 04-29-2002, 06:14 PM   #58
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What kinds of things are there against the Torah in Group Theory and Topology?
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Unread 04-29-2002, 06:23 PM   #59
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oh? you mean the college has no Core requirements like any of the liberal arts, and you can graduate by taking only math courses?
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Unread 04-29-2002, 06:24 PM   #60
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In all of the colleges that are accepting me, I can take a purely mathematics / computer science cirriculum.
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Unread 04-29-2002, 06:59 PM   #61
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this doesn't happen in the U.S. as far as I know
so if you have determined that you should go, it is certainly a far better situation than those who are required to take all sorts of topics
though the course material is not the only issue of course, as was mentioned earlier

Last edited by Jude; 04-30-2002 at 06:03 PM.
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Unread 04-29-2002, 07:19 PM   #62
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I'm aware of those difficulties. When I phoned my mashpiah about my residence letter, he made it subtly clear that a residence would probably not be the best place for me to live.
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Unread 04-29-2002, 08:46 PM   #63
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lambda,

<<What kinds of things are there against the Torah in Group Theory and Topology?>>

I reiterate, "They teach things Hepech the Torah there , and in such places one cannot attend. (As explained in previous posts)"

This being the case, it is hardly a place for a Jewish person to go to (to study there).
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Unread 04-29-2002, 09:56 PM   #64
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it's definitely a tough issue with lots of agonizing decisions involved that have lifelong repercussions
...That is undeniable. It is VERY TOUGH..

OTOH, You cannot write off college/university as a total no-no.
It was much easier and clearer when the Rebbe was alive, that is for sure.

The Rebbe has in the past given his blessing to certain individuals for college. this was the exception, of course, and for very special reasons. Every person is a whole world, and the Rebbe knew
exactly what every person needed.

It is not black and white, and should be discussed throughout with a respected mashpia. A major move in any direction affects EVERYTHING....
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Unread 04-29-2002, 10:35 PM   #65
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<<It is not black and white, and should be discussed throughout with a respected mashpia. A major move in any direction affects EVERYTHING....>>

Umm, I'm not so sure about this.

All the letters I've seen on this subject (and there are a lot), discuss the reason of NOT going.

So, while the Rebbe gave (very) few people the right to attend college, on an overall the Rebbe was adamantly against it.

The fact that there were only a select few shows that it wasn't the norm...!
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Unread 04-29-2002, 11:03 PM   #66
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BTW - One of the only reasons I am considering college is that my mashpiah is basically telling me to go...
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Unread 04-29-2002, 11:34 PM   #67
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Why is he doing that? Assuming he's a respectable mashpia, does he know something about you situation that we members do not? Perhaps there are extenuating circumstances involved here?
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Unread 04-29-2002, 11:51 PM   #68
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I must say Jac brings up a good point (and valid one).

By the way, why is he/she so insistent you go to college? (If it's not private)
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Unread 04-30-2002, 12:04 AM   #69
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Well, there are a few facts that come into play. I'm not a Jew, I'm converting in the future. The distance of that future could really be the same no matter where I go. I have lived amongst secular influence my entire life. In fact, going to university is a step up in Yiddishkeit. There is a Lubavitch community (not a Chabad house) with a beis midrash very close to the university. Also, it suffices to say that I am not all that bad at the subject I am looking into studying.

I would obviously have a seder in learning emes -- and math lectures aren't always the kind that you need to attend every single day, if you know what I mean...

Last edited by lambda; 04-30-2002 at 12:13 AM.
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Unread 04-30-2002, 12:31 AM   #70
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OK, this is an entire different altogether.

When the Rebbe spoke/wrote about kids not going to college, he was talking about Jewish ones.

The question is, what about a convert? (Or one that is becoming one)

I don't know you or the level of Judaism you are holding. I assume your Mashpia does, I further assume that this being the case your Mashpia probably knows best.

In my last post, I didn't know what I was dealing with, hence the response.

As long as you aware of the challenges and obstacles ahead of you, I don't see it a problem that you attend college... (My personal opinion)
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Unread 05-19-2002, 01:44 PM   #71
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BS”D

[A young woman who attended a Jewish seminary wrote to the Rebbe saying that she wanted to vacate the seminary to pursue a college degree in the sciences, so she could be challenged and use her knowledge to make a difference. The Rebbe responds:]

Surely it is normal for youth to look for challenges and new experiences. This desire has its roots in the words of our sages, who teach that one should strive to fulfil one’s capabilities, constantly looking for new vistas and challenges.

On the other hand, our Sages have instructed us not to put ourselves into dangerous situations. Before one engages in new challenges, one must be “armed”, or else he will be influenced rather than being influential.

In regard to Jews, particularly in our generation, secular education of all sorts – including colleges and universities – can be compared to a healthy person saying that all his life he has only seen and lived with healthy people, and wondering how he can use his talents to assist sick people. Therefore, he decides to move to an area where contagious diseases are prevalent. There he will go to school and study medicine in order to cure the sick. The moral is obvious.

Going to college in order to solve the world’s problems is tantamount to putting yourself in danger by living in a community where there are contagious diseases. Instead, there are many challenges waiting for young women like you to deal with. As you point out in your letter, the problems that exist in Jewish seminaries need to be solved. Only those who confront these issues can attempt to correct them. However, one must first have the basic tools. This includes knowing the subject matter taught at the seminary, expertise in pedagogy, firm resolution not to be disappointed if one does not see initial results, and not to be concerned that others laugh at what you are doing. Once you meet these challenges by exerting energy, to the point of self-sacrifice, and you are successful, you can proceed to changing the general attitude hovering in the seminary.

Surely Hashem will help you.

Quoted in the Rebbe’s Advice, vol. 1 p. 168-170
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Unread 08-15-2002, 03:18 PM   #72
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There are no trade schools for teenage girls. The only accepted option is to become a teacher. What if that is not someone's Shlichus? Not everyone fits into the mold of teacher/ program director/ etc. Some people need a more hands-on job.

I'm trying to work that out right now. I'm not capable of teaching for any length of time. I'm trying to use skills I already have to become a graphic designer for Shluchim, but I am not sure that will work out. I don't have any sort of degree, so if a graphic design business does not provide me with a Parnassa, I'm stuck! What should I do then? Bag groceries at the local supermarket??? Not everyone is cut out for Mivtzoyim and Shlichus. And there are not many other options.

Also: B"H I was blessed with a good head- for secular subjects.
In 10th grade I took a sample SAT (college entrance exam) and got a 1400 out of 1600.
Isn't it a waste of a talent not to use it?
Couldn't this be used to become a doctor (medical doctor) and actually help other people with it?
It says in Hayom Yom that someone who bakes bread, yet is capable of polishing diamonds is not doing something positive- even though baking bread is also important.
By becoming a teacher of Hebrew subjects, which I don't have so much of a natural grasp of, am I not wasting a G-d-given talent?

You're probably wondering if I'm asking for the sake of asking or Stam to make a point. Actually, both .
In one sense, I'd love to hear someone say "yes, go to college if you'd like to," because then I'd feel like, hey- worst case scenario, if this job doesn't work out I can try to get a degree in something I actually can do. Whether I go or not, I'll at least have a choice!
In another way, I'd love to hear a powerful, convincing argument that settles my doubts once and for all, and reinspires me.

Anyone have any insights?
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Unread 08-15-2002, 05:01 PM   #73
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The first question is, do you believe that you are here to perform a shlichus? a shlichus that only you can do?

The second question is, and this is personal (though you ask this in a public forum, so I'm responding): is there a reason why you need to support yourself?

A comment: I reject the idea that someone has a good head for secular subjects, but cannot apply those brains to Torah. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Maybe after your response, I can respond further.
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Unread 08-16-2002, 01:46 AM   #74
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Where is "here"? In this world, yes I believe that- Kol Haolam Lo Nivra Ela Bishvili . Exactly what that Shlichus is may forever be open for debate . There is a place for both a Yissachar and a Zvulun in this world. As well as a diamond cutter and baker.

As for the Parnasa question- yes, unfortunately. Shluchim are not rich, and I cannot ask my parents to support me another year.

About the "head for subjects", I see what you mean- when I reread my post it does sound kind of foolish , but I don't have any other way to explain that I got straight A's in secular subjects (yes, in an advanced school), and yet struggled for 3 years to get 100 one time on a Tanya test (average 70). I'm not saying I'm stupid in Limudei Kodesh (Ch"V), but I don't have the same natural aptitude for it.

That clarify issues enough? =)
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Unread 08-16-2002, 12:36 PM   #75
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<<Exactly what that Shlichus is may forever be open for debate>>

sounds bleak Where does your heart lie re shlichus? What do people who know you, tell you you'd be great at (parents, friends, mashpia)? Would you write a letter and put it in the Igros Kodesh and ask the Rebbe?

<< I cannot ask my parents to support me another year.>>

maybe your situation is different, so don't take offense if this comment doesn't apply to you, but I am quite shocked by what you write. Parents are obligated to provide for their children until they marry them off. They (the father) are supposed to teach their sons a trade, and their sons-in-law are supposed to provide for their wives, as it says in the kesuba. So that it's an issue of not being able to ask your parents etc. is an eyebrow raiser for me ...

secular subjects/Jewish subjects - I really find it odd. In my experience in school, those who got good marks, got them in both Heb. and Eng. Can you analyze it? Were the secular studies teachers far more qualified? Was it them, or was it you?
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