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Unread 01-27-2010, 05:17 PM   #1
noahidelaws
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boys being taught by male teachers

Is anyone aware of anywhere that the Rebbe writes concerning it being proper for boys, including very young ones, to be taught by male teachers davka and not female ones. Please provide the source. Thanks in advance.
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Unread 01-27-2010, 08:23 PM   #2
Torah613
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לא שבקת חיים לכל בריה. I have yet to see such a school (in Chabad). Unless I am not understanding what "very young ones" means.
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Unread 01-28-2010, 01:45 AM   #3
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So what is the age at which it has been standard for children to start being taught by male teachers--3? 5? older? Did the Rebbe, or at least a very chosheve mechanech like R' Chodakov, address this?
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Unread 01-28-2010, 08:50 AM   #4
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Where did you see 3 year olds being taught by male teachers?
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Unread 01-28-2010, 11:17 AM   #5
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AFAIK male teachers don't deal with diapers
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Unread 01-28-2010, 12:38 PM   #6
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1. You didn't answer my question concerning which age it is considered standard to only have male teachers.

2. So how was it in "the old country"--girls were teaching boys? Isn't the whole idea of the hachnoso lecheder ceremony that at age 3 the boy goes to cheder, i.e., he is taught by a male teacher?
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Unread 01-28-2010, 12:44 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
1. You didn't answer my question concerning which age it is considered standard to only have male teachers.

2. So how was it in "the old country"--girls were teaching boys? Isn't the whole idea of the hachnoso lecheder ceremony that at age 3 the boy goes to cheder, i.e., he is taught by a male teacher?
they bring the 3 years old boy to a 9 or10 year old class
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Unread 01-28-2010, 12:46 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
1. You didn't answer my question concerning which age it is considered standard to only have male teachers.

2. So how was it in "the old country"--girls were teaching boys? Isn't the whole idea of the hachnoso lecheder ceremony that at age 3 the boy goes to cheder, i.e., he is taught by a male teacher?
doesn't the halacha state that women should not teach school at all?

(but then women come to pick up the young children?)

there has to be some heter somewhere. The practice is almost universal.
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Unread 03-04-2010, 12:37 PM   #9
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they did not go to the 9-10 year old class that is a modern Mishigas! Of course they were in Cheder with a Rebbe at age 3! You would be surprised but if you walk into a Cheder in Williamsburg or any Poilishe Cheder, you will see how they have Rebbe's from age 3!
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Unread 03-04-2010, 05:28 PM   #10
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You would be surprised but if you walk into a Cheder in Williamsburg or any Poilishe Cheder, you will see how they have Rebbe's from age 3!
So this is yet another depressing item in the list of areas in which we have lower standards, R"l.

So what is the basis for this practice in our circle of having female teachers for ages 3-? Women want to get out of the house? We need to find something to keep the girls busy while they look for a shidduch?
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Unread 03-04-2010, 11:57 PM   #11
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Maybe because (as a rule) they are simply better at dealing with that age?
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Unread 03-05-2010, 12:14 AM   #12
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So why didn't they think of this brilliant chap in der alter heim?
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Unread 03-05-2010, 09:44 AM   #13
Torah613
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Because of the reality of life there. And - do you really think it was more successful back then?

By all means - run an experiment: Send your 3 year olds to a male teacher. Let us know how well it works.
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Unread 03-05-2010, 09:45 AM   #14
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If you look in the FR's memoirs, the impression I get is that the Rebbe was not hired at such a young age for many kids; rather the Rebbe was hired when the kids were getting to an age where they needed to start learning properly as bochurim do (which is maybe 8 or 9?) Many families who could not afford a Rebbe would leave them at home with Mommy while Tatty was in the field farming or at his shop.

It seems to me that the families with no Mommy (lo aleinu) or the families where both parents worked would rely on family or neighbors to watch the kids. This is my understanding (m'pi shmuah from those who are now grandparents themselves) of how small communities behaved in places like Kvar Chabad and Brunei. Modern play groups function in much the same way as those babysitters did.

I think the difference today is not so much that we brought women into the schools as it is that we brought women and the children they watch into the schools. We have programs for as young as 2 years old; which were simply not in the budget in der alter heim. The women who watched those kids before now have titles to go with the job.
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Unread 03-05-2010, 09:52 AM   #15
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They only went to a melamed at 8-9?? I doubt that is correct. See Hil. Talmud Torah of the AR 1:1.
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Unread 03-05-2010, 11:27 AM   #16
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Because of the reality of life there. And - do you really think it was more successful back then?
What do you mean by "reality of life"? How should I know what was successful decades before I was born? I do tend to think that any deviation from the traditional form of chinuch in der alter heim should not be taken lightly at all. But perhaps my image of those times is too idyllic.
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Unread 03-05-2010, 11:42 AM   #17
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Very likely
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Unread 03-05-2010, 12:14 PM   #18
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Still, don't we have a principle: "kol ha'meshaneh, yodoi al ha'tachtoinoh"?
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Unread 03-05-2010, 03:13 PM   #19
Torah613
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Do we? You mean the sugya in BM, that has no connection or bearing at all on this discusion?
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Unread 03-06-2010, 12:46 PM   #20
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Meh, you had kids being taught my mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, uncles, random melamdim, you had rich people supporting a private tutor for their kids, you had all kinds of arangements (if the children infact attended school at all!)

(before you criticize, if a woman could read tzena urena, it meant that she could read, if not understand, hebrew... which means that they were capable of teaching a child to read basic hebrew text.)
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Unread 03-06-2010, 08:32 PM   #21
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No one answered my question: Isn't the whole idea of the hachnoso lecheder ceremony that at age 3 the boy goes to cheder, i.e., he is taught by a male teacher? This seems to imply that al pi minhag Yisroel, that is what is proper.
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Unread 03-09-2010, 07:55 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
No one answered my question: Isn't the whole idea of the hachnoso lecheder ceremony that at age 3 the boy goes to cheder, i.e., he is taught by a male teacher? This seems to imply that al pi minhag Yisroel, that is what is proper.
Why do you think that it means davka that a boy is taught by a male teacher instead of simply going to school for the first time?

the confusing thing about starting chinuch at three is that there are few halachic sources to confirm it, and did they really seriously expect 3 year olds to start school and actualy behave in the standard cheder enviornment?

I'd have to look in what sources are available, but more than likely taking him to school was connected to giving him an alef bais covered in honey, IE good behavioral conditioning to make the child look forward to going to school and study hard with mommy, as well as a symbolic entery into his formal education. (you'd be foolish to assume that he's actualy capable of truly learning his alef bais then... maybe one in a thousand children can do this, if that.)

Not that davka he's being taught by a male. Do you have a source otherwise? (the book on upshiurin from sichos in english mentions nothing of the sort.)
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Unread 03-09-2010, 03:28 PM   #23
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Whatever. That's what hachnoso l'cheder means. You bring him into cheder. It's simple. Teachers were typically male. That's all. This is not a matter of halacha, but of fact.
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Unread 03-09-2010, 07:23 PM   #24
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ובבקשה לזכור שרוב הנשים בתקופות הקודמות לא ידעו קרוא וכתוב. וגם שילדים לא למדו ב"חיידער" עד לפחות גיל 3-4.
וזה בניגוד לתופעות הנראות היום, שרוב הילדים מתחילים בגן בגילי 1 וחצי עד 2, ואחרי כמה שנים לומדים בכיתה א'.
וגם שהתחילו תנועה בארה"ק בה יש גננת ורב שבא ללמד את הכיתה כל יום. ויש גנים בהם יש גנן ולא גננת. ואולי כדאי לעבור לגור בארה"ק אם הנושא הזה כ"כ חשוב הוא.
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Unread 03-09-2010, 09:05 PM   #25
Torah613
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I seem to recall that an AR was mentioned before, about when boys went to a teacher to learn.
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