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Unread 03-12-2008, 10:05 PM   #1
existwhere?
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Charting Tanya

1. Are there charts as aids for learning Tanya?
2. If so, can someone please help me get one?
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Unread 03-13-2008, 08:05 AM   #2
Yankel Nosson
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Tanya Map

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Originally Posted by existwhere? View Post
1. Are there charts as aids for learning Tanya?
2. If so, can someone please help me get one?
http://store.kehotonline.com/index.p...temsperpage=10
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Unread 03-13-2008, 08:27 AM   #3
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If you are referring to learning tanya ba'al peh, I think there is a "chart" - i.e. the first letter of each word in some editions printed in Israel, but I am not sure...
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Unread 03-13-2008, 08:05 PM   #4
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Thanks to both of you.
I wasn't clear- I meant charts to show the actual concepts, like the olamos and the spiritual levels.
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Unread 03-14-2008, 02:06 AM   #5
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You can find general charts by searching on google for "Kabbalah" - however, Chassidus has generally been opposed to charts; once you will know more then you will clearly understand the reason behind it.

But in all fairness, there isn't that much to remember - and furthermore, many of the levels change their configuration based on the context. A chart would only be more confusing.
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Unread 03-14-2008, 10:58 AM   #6
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The chart would have to be in five dimensions: not only in 3D space, constantly changing, with stuff moving around, but also the way it changes depending on your perspective.
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Unread 03-16-2008, 01:16 AM   #7
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I started a thread on this topic a while back: Writing Diagrams of Higher Levels
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Unread 03-16-2008, 09:46 AM   #8
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I started a thread on this topic a while back: Writing Diagrams of Higher Levels
What does it mean to "learn kabbala according to chassidus"?
Is the Tanya kabbala?
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Unread 03-16-2008, 10:48 AM   #9
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Yes, Tanya is Kabbalah according to Chasidus.
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Unread 03-16-2008, 12:47 PM   #10
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The objections to charts seem to be:
1. It leads to oversimplification.
2. It creates an illusion that one understands something they don't really.
3. There are nuances impossible to convey visually.
4. The things to be charted are just a moshol.

First, we always learn that sight represents learning all at once, while hearing is bit by bit. Therefore, wouldn't a visual representation be a much more complete way of learning with all the nuances than verbal?
How could it lead to oversimplification? As you learn more, it gets more complicated.
I don't understand number four.
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Unread 03-17-2008, 08:50 AM   #11
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1. Makif/Pnimi.
2. I don't see it as a heavy objection. It does give some kind of overconfidence and visualization "It's simple!"
3. Same as 1
4. I don't know what you are referring to. Chassidus itself is comprised of Mosholim. Perhaps you do not get the original text in such a manner, but then again, you do not get the original text in Heichal Menachem either (well, you do, but with much excess)
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Unread 03-17-2008, 11:51 AM   #12
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I think what is meant by number 4 is that ideas in Chassidus ("light", "keili", "partzuf", etc.) are very abstract representations of processes that we have no way of comprehending (since they are totally out of our everyday reality -- unless one's awareness is way above gashmius of Asiyah, of course). At best, we comprehend only relationships, not actual entities -- this is why Chassidus is likened to mann, as opposed to nigleh, in which all concepts are clearly and completely grasped (at the expense of being gashmiustike).

So, to draw a "diagram" would give some level of illusion that processes described on it "are" actually like that. It would be like drawing a diagram of, lehavdil, gashmius that describes combinations and relationships of four forces: weak, strong, electromagnetic and gravitational, and it is combinations of these forces that create the matter. Now, if you express it purely in formulas, you realize that what you're describing is abstract relationships. But if you start drawing diagrams, there is a danger (if you have never seen this world) to assume that this is how the world "looks like" -- which is very far from truth; also, depending on a particular case, relationships and "end products" differ.
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Unread 03-18-2008, 08:42 AM   #13
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One thing I have noticed about charts and chassidus is that things change in the sense like keser being included and then knocking off a midda so its hard to make a chart as it all depends on the context you are learning plus with so many levels....

I think Rabbi Ginsberg made a chart with stuff. I will have a look if you wish
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Unread 03-18-2008, 01:07 PM   #14
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Well, the thing about Kesser/Daas is not exclusive to Chassidus, but there are many shifts and repositioning.

Ginsburg.. ehh.. don't know how much Chassidus he teaches - he has his own institute, but it is not a Chabad Mossad, and I don't think his primary intent is to teach Chassidus as much as it is to teach standard Kabbalah with Chabad pirushim.
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Unread 03-18-2008, 02:19 PM   #15
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I sometimes raise an eyebrow at R' Ginsburg, but pray tell how he is not a "Chabad Mosad." I know that term, like Kesser/Daas, changes meaning depending on the user and the context...
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Unread 03-18-2008, 11:22 PM   #16
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He has his own institute, Gal Einai, which is not necesarily a Chabad institute, just as Steinzaltz's Yeshiva is not a Chabad institute, nor is Africa Israel a "Chabad Company". They are simply not sanctioned by Chabad.

I could give a lenghtier answer as to how those institutes are not Chabad, but I think the reason is rather obvious for those who think such, and rather lengthy for those who need an argument, so I will just keep it at that.

I don't know how much I would call those people Chabad either (although their children are full-fledged Chassidim), at least not Chabad proper - perhaps I'm being too exclusive here.
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Unread 03-19-2008, 01:36 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiskashrus View Post
1. Makif/Pnimi.
2. I don't see it as a heavy objection. It does give some kind of overconfidence and visualization "It's simple!"
3. Same as 1
4. I don't know what you are referring to. Chassidus itself is comprised of Mosholim. Perhaps you do not get the original text in such a manner, but then again, you do not get the original text in Heichal Menachem either (well, you do, but with much excess)
Please remember that I am a complete ignoramus in Lubavitch thought. What is Heichal Menachem?
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingAxe View Post
I think what is meant by number 4 is that ideas in Chassidus ("light", "keili", "partzuf", etc.) are very abstract representations of processes that we have no way of comprehending (since they are totally out of our everyday reality -- unless one's awareness is way above gashmius of Asiyah, of course). At best, we comprehend only relationships, not actual entities -- this is why Chassidus is likened to mann, as opposed to nigleh, in which all concepts are clearly and completely grasped (at the expense of being gashmiustike).

So, to draw a "diagram" would give some level of illusion that processes described on it "are" actually like that. It would be like drawing a diagram of, lehavdil, gashmius that describes combinations and relationships of four forces: weak, strong, electromagnetic and gravitational, and it is combinations of these forces that create the matter. Now, if you express it purely in formulas, you realize that what you're describing is abstract relationships. But if you start drawing diagrams, there is a danger (if you have never seen this world) to assume that this is how the world "looks like" -- which is very far from truth; also, depending on a particular case, relationships and "end products" differ.
Why is chassidus likened to Man?

Thank you for the explanation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LitvishMeidel View Post
One thing I have noticed about charts and chassidus is that things change in the sense like keser being included and then knocking off a midda so its hard to make a chart as it all depends on the context you are learning plus with so many levels....

I think Rabbi Ginsberg made a chart with stuff. I will have a look if you wish
Please, thank you. It isn't to replace the text, just to go along with it to make it easier to build on what was mentioned previously.
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Unread 03-19-2008, 02:35 PM   #18
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To mann, the staff Jews ate in the desert. It did not satisfy materially (at least completely), because it was too spiritual and did not have a definite shape/form/texture (even though it tasted like whatever you wanted it to taste). Forgot the source (a ma'amor or a sichoh of the Rebbe).
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Unread 03-19-2008, 04:47 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingAxe View Post
To mann, the staff Jews ate in the desert. It did not satisfy materially (at least completely), because it was too spiritual and did not have a definite shape/form/texture (even though it tasted like whatever you wanted it to taste). Forgot the source (a ma'amor or a sichoh of the Rebbe).
Thanks, it sounds like a Rashi actually for some reason.
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Unread 03-19-2008, 06:56 PM   #20
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The comparison of mann with chassidus was from the Rebbe.
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Unread 03-19-2008, 10:43 PM   #21
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Quote:
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The comparison of mann with chassidus was from the Rebbe.
Source?
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Unread 03-20-2008, 11:48 AM   #22
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So many men and staff... interesting typos.

Exist, I will get back to you.. but then you need to expound on your problems
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Unread 03-23-2008, 10:04 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by existwhere? View Post
The objections to charts seem to be:
1. It leads to oversimplification.
2. It creates an illusion that one understands something they don't really.
3. There are nuances impossible to convey visually.
4. The things to be charted are just a moshol.

First, we always learn that sight represents learning all at once, while hearing is bit by bit. Therefore, wouldn't a visual representation be a much more complete way of learning with all the nuances than verbal?
How could it lead to oversimplification? As you learn more, it gets more complicated.
I don't understand number four.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiskashrus View Post
So many men and staff... interesting typos.

Exist, I will get back to you.. but then you need to expound on your problems
Hope you had a freilechen Purim!

What are the typos?
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Unread 03-23-2008, 12:01 PM   #24
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does anyone know of any book that explains tanya clearly for the beginner learner?
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Unread 03-23-2008, 12:58 PM   #25
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Quote:
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does anyone know of any book that explains tanya clearly for the beginner learner?
http://www.chabad.org/library/articl...s-in-Tanya.htm
It's excellent.
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