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Unread 06-03-2004, 05:39 PM   #1
BaisHamikdashBa
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Post tanya perek chof hey

the alter rebbe rights we dont say echte vachar kach ashuv (i will sin and do teshiva later) instead of dying al kiddush hashem b/c lmala mzamn it remains a sin forever.

so what is teshuva mahava rabba mean? how is it possible zdonos naseh lo kzochios if ti remains forever?
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Unread 06-03-2004, 07:20 PM   #2
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Read the perek word by word and see if you still have a question, if you do then clarify and rewrite it.

[Btw what I would suggest you do, is learn Tanya with an English, Yiddish, or Hebrew shiurim b'sefer hatanya]
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Unread 06-03-2004, 09:00 PM   #3
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actually this is the way my teacher explained it!! he said he had this question and asked many mashpiim and couldnt find a satisfing answer, yet. so i decided maybe ill try it here.

basicly it says that a part of the neshama is lmaleh mzman on that level everything is all at once and last forever = how could you do teshuva mahava rabba that takes that away?

also please send me how you learnt the answer to why we cant do teshuva instead of dying (al kiddush hashem)
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Unread 06-03-2004, 09:38 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by BaisHamikdashBa
basicly it says that a part of the neshama is lmaleh mzman on that level everything is all at once and last forever = how could you do teshuva mahava rabba that takes that away?
[I hope you are aware that this is not what you asked in your first post]

As for an explanation see Likutei Sichos vol. 8 page 5 and footnote 25 there.


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also please sned me how you learnt the answer to why we cant do teshuva instead of dying
You mean 'echte vasuv'? .....You CAN [as it says clearly there]
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Unread 06-04-2004, 01:38 PM   #5
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Quote:
[I hope you are aware that this is not what you asked in your first post]
i believe it is!


Quote:
quote:
also please send me how you learnt the answer to why we cant do teshuva instead of dying


You mean 'echte vasuv'? .....You CAN [as it says clearly there]
instead of mesiras nefesh!!! obviously you can in any mitzvah but not mesiras nefesh!!! like i said in post one not instead of mesiras nefesh
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Unread 06-04-2004, 02:32 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by BaisHamikdashBa

i believe it is!
I will not argue the point being that it would be pointless...

Quote:

instead of mesiras nefesh!!! obviously you can in any mitzvah but not mesiras nefesh!!! like i said in post one not instead of mesiras nefesh
If by Mesiras nefesh you mean a Mitzva that you obligated to go on mesiras nefesh for I.E. Avoda Zora , then if you would learn the perek again (did you?) you will see that the AR writes that you could , just that a person would\does not do it because of his Neshoma...
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Unread 06-04-2004, 02:55 PM   #7
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Quote:
If by Mesiras nefesh you mean a Mitzva that you obligated to go on mesiras nefesh for I.E. Avoda Zora , then if you would learn the perek again (did you?) you will see that the AR writes that you could , just that a person would\does not do it because of his Neshoma...
i did!! the way i see it and the way my teacher explained it is that you cant do teshuva instead of dieing since if you do the aveira then it will never be able to come out since ..lmaleh mzman....

i do see the way you learn it but to me it doesnt make sense to me for a number of reasons

1) the alter rebbes original question was why did hashem make our neshomah in a way that it would die al kidush hashem (it cant JUST be like the simple meaning of why not do teshuva instead of dying since dying al kidush hashem is a feeling that we kind of cant stop or think that it doesntr make sense)

2) even if what i said in #1 isnt true and your questioon is the only question (not going a step further) then how does it answer the question. we asked why not to teshuva instead...? we answered (according to the way you are saying) since a part of the neshoma is above time so our neshoma cant take the seperation even for a minute and if no part of the neshoma was lmaleh mzman the neshoma still couldnt take the seperation even for a minute!!

therefore my teacher said that the lmaleh mzman means more it means that it stays forever if so our neshoma cant take it so it dies al kidush hashem and teshuva wouldnt be able to take that away. --------------------- but we learnt earlier that teshuiva mahava rabba takes everything away???? (zdonos nasek lo kzochios)
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Unread 06-04-2004, 04:37 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by BaisHamikdashBa


i did!! the way i see it and the way my teacher explained it is that you cant do teshuva instead of dieing since if you do the aveira then it will never be able to come out since ..lmaleh mzman....
When you say "can't" in what sense do you mean i.e. the literal,or as in you are 'not allowed to'...



Quote:
i do see the way you learn it but to me it doesnt make sense to me for a number of reasons

1) the alter rebbes original question was why did hashem make our neshomah in a way that it would die al kidush hashem (it cant JUST be like the simple meaning of why not do teshuva instead of dying since dying al kidush hashem is a feeling that we kind of cant stop or think that it doesntr make sense)

2) even if what i said in #1 isnt true and your questioon is the only question (not going a step further) then how does it answer the question. we asked why not to teshuva instead...? we answered (according to the way you are saying) since a part of the neshoma is above time so our neshoma cant take the seperation even for a minute and if no part of the neshoma was lmaleh mzman the neshoma still couldnt take the seperation even for a minute!!
Did you see the LS quoted ealier yet... that is what it is coming to answer!

Quote:
therefore my teacher said that the lmaleh mzman means more it means that it stays forever if so our neshoma cant take it so it dies al kidush hashem and teshuva wouldnt be able to take that away. --------------------- but we learnt earlier that teshuiva mahava rabba takes everything away???? (zdonos nasek lo kzochios)
If I may ask where do you learn? (do not feel you have to answer if you do not want to)
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Unread 06-04-2004, 04:53 PM   #9
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i did check it up, but didnt really understand how it answers the questions

how will it help you if i tell you where i learn?
ill tell you its a chabad yeshiva in new york
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Unread 06-04-2004, 05:08 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by BaisHamikdashBa
how will it help you if i tell you where i learn?
ill tell you its a chabad yeshiva in new york
I was first going to ask who your teacher was, but decided against it, and I just asked where you learn....

....I was just wondering, since you brought what you said in the name of your teacher.
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Unread 06-04-2004, 05:10 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by BaisHamikdashBa
i did check it up, but didnt really understand how it answers the questions
What did you understand it to be saying?
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Unread 06-06-2004, 01:06 PM   #12
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i didnt understand after the semi colon but before it i understood it to mean that teshuva does take it away but it doesnt explain how it would make sense in the tanya

but the way always learnt teshuva mahava rabba is in takes it away totaly, it might mean that its not totally wiped out but i was looking for a better answer

(today my teacher came in and said he found the answer, so i asked him if its this sicha so he said yse he was wondering how i knew!!! (dont worry i gave credit were it was due, but i didnt know your name ) he said he saw it in R. Greens "tanya", but he told me he still doesnt understand how it makes sense with the tanya)

btw thanks so far
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Unread 06-06-2004, 01:29 PM   #13
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I don't quiet understand the discussion but from what I understand teshuva mehava does more than totally wipe it out. It changes it's essence so that it no longer has any features of bad and is only good.
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Unread 06-06-2004, 02:23 PM   #14
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right thats what im saying but from tanya perek 25 it doesnt sound like that
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Unread 06-06-2004, 10:19 PM   #15
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I will start from the beginning and maybe then you will understand…. [The following is basically from the ‘shiurim bsefer hatanya byiddish].

The AR explained in the previous perokim that because of the Ahava that a Jew has to hashem he cannot do an ‘aveira’ because that will disconnect him from hashem, the reason he does do aveiros is because of the ‘ruach shtuts’ that covers the ahava and makes him not feel that he is being disconnected….

In our perek, the AR is coming to explain how to take away that ‘ruach shtus’ in order that he should feel that when he does a transgression he is disconnected from hashem…

The AR starts off by saying that, the reason that it is “koroiv aleicho hadovor meiod’ is because it is always in the power of the person to take away this ‘ruach shtus’ and remember and be ‘morer’ his Ahava to hashem that everyone has hidden in them.

This Ahava has in it also ‘Yirah’, this fear is that he should not be disconnected from Hashem EVEN if it is something that he has to be ‘Moiser Nefesh’ on, this that he is Moiser Nefesh is not something that comes from his comprehension, rather it is a G-dly-natrualness.

Now, if his ready to be ‘moiser nefesh’, for sure to just brake his ‘taivos’ which are much easier then the pains of death he (is able) [does] (to) do in order that he should not be ‘over’ the will of hashem, since that when he is ‘over’ the will of Hashem he becomes disconnected from him just like by Avoda Zora Mamush, while he does the avira.
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Unread 06-06-2004, 10:23 PM   #16
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>>>It was explained in the previous perek that when someone does an ‘aveira’ he is disconnected from hashem just like when by ‘avoda zora’, and since by avoda zora he would have held back even to the point of ‘meseiras nefesh’, so too by every other ‘aveira’ it should be the same thing since while he is doing it he is disconnected from hashem.

But their is a difference that the Yeitzer Hora wants to convince the person and that is, that by ‘avoda zora he stays disconnected even after he did the aveira, and by the more lenient ‘aveiros’ it is only while he is doing the ‘aveira’ but not afterwards…on this the AR explains...<<<

That by ‘avoda zora’ you can also do Tesuva afterwards (and therefore you can still compare ‘avoda zora’ to the ‘aveiros’ i.e. that both of them are just for the time being [not like the Yetzer Hora is trying to convince you that there is a difference])

>Now the AR ‘bavorns’ another question, that while it is true that you can do Tesuva even for ‘avoda zora’, still there is a rule that who ever says I will do an aveira now and do Tesuva later ‘ain maspikin beypdo lasos Tsuva’, therefore you still cannot compare AZ with the other averos, since that by AZ he cannot rely on the Tesuva he will do later therefore he does not do the ‘aveira’ now since he does not want to be disconnected from hashem, but by the more lenient ‘aveiros’ he can do the ‘aveira’ since it anyways just disconnects for the time that he does the ‘aveira’ but not later.

On this the AR answers that this that we say ‘achte vashuv…ain maspikin…’ means just that “ain maspikin” but if he is stubborn and ‘pushes the hour’ he can still do Tesuva because nothing stands in the way of Tesuva, and if so it is just like other ‘averos’ being that he is just disconnected for the time being.

Nevertheless, we see that every Jew is ready to be moiser nefesh not to bow down to idols and rely on the Tesuva later [Even though it WOULD work] because he does not want to be disconnected even for a short while from hashem.

The power (and the reason why) to [he] do[se] this comes from the light of Hashem that is in clothed in his soul as explained earlier [in perek 19] that this ‘light’ is not in time, only it is higher then time and rules over it [time].

Until here the AR explained how the ‘ahava misuters ‘ gives the power for a person to hold back from doing ‘aveiros’ “sur mera”, from here on the AR is going to explain how it works for doing Mitzvos “assei tov”…


---If you want me to explain the Hora please inform me---
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Unread 06-06-2004, 10:55 PM   #17
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i didnt learn it that way and dont see it that way (the 1st question)

it goes more like in my opinion why takeh do we die alkidush hashem (we just said the whole thing of sur marah comparing to avoda zorah that we die for...)

Quote:
Nevertheless, we see that every Jew is ready to be moiser nefesh not to bow down to idols and rely on the Tesuva later [Even though it WOULD work] because he does not want to be disconnected even for a short while from hashem.
what happened to lmaleh mzman!!!
besides it would work but hes not allowed to do it in the end b/c of the part thats lmaleh mzman

tell me which facts we argue on so we dont have to disscuss the whole perek

1 the alter rebbe said you cant to teshuva instead since a part is lmaleh mzman. agreed?

2 being that it is lmaleh mzamn it will last forever so when our higher part of the neshoma is revealed we cant do anything but die. agreed?

3 (according to what it seems in tanya) even teshiva mahava rabba cant help number2 since it will never get away. if it could help than why die to teshuva.

(now form the sicha you sould me im wrong you can do teshuva mahav to take it away now here comes my question why then doesnt the alter rebbe say do teshuva mahava rabba instead of dieing )

also please explain the second part of the sicha (footnote)
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Unread 06-06-2004, 11:39 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by BaisHamikdashBa
i didnt learn it that way and dont see it that way (the 1st question)
Before anything let me 'warn' you that what I wrote was from the 'shiurim besafer hatanya' [as I mentioned] which was checked over by the Rebbe....

Quote:
it goes more like in my opinion why takeh do we die alkidush hashem (we just said the whole thing of sur marah comparing to avoda zorah that we die for...)
Who said no, unless there is some misunderstanding here...

Quote:
what happened to lmaleh mzman!!! besides it would work but hes not allowed to do it in the end b/c of the part thats lmaleh mzman
It is in the next piece.

Quote:
tell me which facts we argue on so we dont have to disscuss the whole perek

1 the alter rebbe said you cant to teshuva instead since a part is lmaleh mzman. agreed?
No. the AR says he dose not do it because part of his neshoma is lemale mizman and a short time is just like a long time to it, therefore there is no difference on how long it will be for.

Quote:
2 being that it is lmaleh mzamn it will last forever so when our higher part of the neshoma is revealed we cant do anything but die. agreed?
See above. [btw "can't here means he feels he can"t]

Quote:
3 (according to what it seems in tanya) even teshiva mahava rabba cant help number2 since it will never get away. if it could help than why die to teshuva.

(now form the sicha you sould me im wrong you can do teshuva mahav to take it away now here comes my question why then doesnt the alter rebbe say do teshuva mahava rabba instead of dieing )
it is not discussing in tanya what you 'should' do, that it says in the Torah!! what it is discussing is the 'chesbon' the person makes, and what the person feels etc. (and the reason why the person is still moser nefesh is explained above [btw did you learn the pnim of the sicha?])

Quote:
also please explain the second part of the sicha (footnote)
Since this 'or hashem' is higher then time, therefore what my be just for a short time can be more 'noge' then something that is for a long time, being that it rules over [and is higher then] time.
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Unread 06-07-2004, 04:21 PM   #19
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Quote:
That by ‘avoda zora’ you can also do Tesuva afterwards (and therefore you can still compare ‘avoda zora’ to the ‘aveiros’ i.e. that both of them are just for the time being [not like the Yetzer Hora is trying to convince you that there is a difference])
i meant i didnt learn anything to do with that we can still compare it i learn it dif. i might be worng!!

Quote:
No. the AR says he dose not do it because part of his neshoma is lemale mizman and a short time is just like a long time to it, therefore there is no difference on how long it will be for.
you told me that and i asked a question already i dont undersatnd that--- and if it wasnt lmaleh mzman its still being disconnected what does that have to do with lmaleh mzamn

Quote:
therefore there is no difference on how long it will be for.
since it stays forever?

Quote:
it is not discussing in tanya what you 'should' do, that it says in the Torah!! what it is discussing is the 'chesbon' the person makes, and what the person feels etc. (and the reason why the person is still moser nefesh is explained above [btw did you learn the pnim of the sicha?])
form what i see its discussing why did hashem make it that our neshoma does it.


whats the bottom line? he doesnt want to be disconnected for a second so he dies then whats it have to do with lmaleh mzman? or is it that he doesnt want this aveirah to last forever so he dies?
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Unread 06-07-2004, 07:17 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by BaisHamikdashBa

i meant i didnt learn anything to do with that we can still compare it i learn it dif. i might be worng!!
Why don't you learn this perek with a 'shiurim besefer hatanya' you choose the langauage



Quote:
you told me that and i asked a question already i dont undersatnd that--- and if it wasnt lmaleh mzman its still being disconnected what does that have to do with lmaleh mzamn
That is the reason that he is ready to be 'moiser nefesh' in order that even for one second he should not be seperated from Hashem (even though later he can do Tesuva).

Maybe if you learn the Sicha (I mean the Sicha itself as opposed to the footnote) you will understand it better [if not the whole Sicha then at least ois 4].



Quote:
since it stays forever?
Since it is higher then time ,so the length is irelevant to it, therefore you do not judge the aveiros by how long they will last since it makes no difference to it [but it does NOT stay forever as explained].



Quote:
form what i see its discussing why did hashem make it that our neshoma does it.
The neshama was discussed in perek 19,here it is explaining how\why is it 'korov eilecho hadover meod'..


Quote:
whats the bottom line? he doesnt want to be disconnected for a second so he dies then whats it have to do with lmaleh mzman? or is it that he doesnt want this aveirah to last forever so he dies?
you will like this answer...half of both

See the haora in the sicha again...basically one, since it is higher then time so their is an element of 'foreverness' even if it is just for one second ,Only since we are dealing with the 'lum haze' Tesuva has the power to uproot it.

And two, since it is 'moishel vshlit olov' even somthing that is for a small amount of time, can have more of an effect then something that is for a much greater lentgh of time.
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Unread 06-08-2004, 12:46 AM   #21
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you arent answering questions directly!!

Quote:
Quote:
quote:
you told me that and i asked a question already i dont undersatnd that--- and if it wasnt lmaleh mzman its still being disconnected what does that have to do with lmaleh mzamn
That is the reason that he is ready to be 'moiser nefesh' in order that even for one second he should not be seperated from Hashem (even though later he can do Tesuva).
my question was what does it have to do with lmaleh mzman. lets say it wasnt the neshoma still wouldnt want to be disconnected for a second!!!!

Quote:
The neshama was discussed in perek 19,here it is explaining how\why is it 'korov eilecho hadover meod'..
so why didnt we answer since when the neshoma is revealed its not up to us


when i asked the bottom line i want to know of from what it seems fromtanya since the sicha i "understand" but i dont see how it lays in tanya so i wanted you to understand my question by seeing the bottom line of tanya....
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Unread 06-08-2004, 09:50 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by BaisHamikdashBa

my question was what does it have to do with lmaleh mzman. lets say it wasnt the neshoma still wouldnt want to be disconnected for a second!!!!
Why not? it would be only for a second and then right afterwards you would be reconnected [since you can do Tesuva]!

Iow that is the reason for what you are saying.

Quote:
so why didnt we answer since when the neshoma is revealed its not up to us
You always have Bechira [ in theory , even by something that requires mesiras nefesh].


Quote:
when i asked the bottom line i want to know of from what it seems fromtanya since the sicha i "understand" but i dont see how it lays in tanya so i wanted you to understand my question by seeing the bottom line of tanya....
See the Sicha ois 4 second to the last paragraph, where the Rebbe brings down the words from this piece of tanya maybe that will help you.
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Unread 06-09-2004, 04:36 PM   #23
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Quote:
Why not? it would be only for a second and then right afterwards you would be reconnected [since you can do Tesuva]!
well you siad the reason is so it wont be disconnetced for a second even lmata mzamn it wont want to be dissconected for a second!!! even though it could reconnect later

but wait we are getting somewhere you said lmateah mzman he could reconnect right after and lmaleh mzamn he cant? even though this second last for a long time lmaleh mzamn the problem is even one second (being diconnected) ! let him do teshuva after



but iyh i will check up the sicha
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Unread 06-09-2004, 06:24 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by BaisHamikdashBa


well you siad the reason is so it wont be disconnetced for a second even lmata mzamn it wont want to be dissconected for a second!!! even though it could reconnect later

but wait we are getting somewhere you said lmateah mzman he could reconnect right after and lmaleh mzamn he cant? even though this second last for a long time lmaleh mzamn the problem is even one second (being diconnected) ! let him do teshuva after
I am not sure what you are saying, but maybe after you learn the sicha it will become clear and there will be no need...

Quote:
but iyh i will check up the sicha
Being that the problem seems to be how to fit it in the words, You should learn the perek with a 'shiurim bsefer hatanya' [the Yiddish one is perferable if possible (since I looked at the english one and they don't have everything thats in the Yiddish one, but if it is not possible then use the english one)] after you learn the sicha.
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