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Unread 12-24-2001, 03:52 PM   #1
Jack
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Hanholah Rules

Why do the Hanholah in every Yeshiva make such stupid rules. Some Yeshivas are worse than others. I understand some rules to make it an atmosphere that is Pas for a bachur. I just don't get why some Hanholahs make stupid unnecessary rules. Yeah, I understand the Rebbe said to make rules, but for example, in my yeshiva, yo're not even allowed to go to Restaurants. That is just an example. I wouldn't say that my Yeshiva is the most Chasidish Yeshiva, and I understand that the Haholah is trying to do whatever they can to make it more Chasidish, but why do they have to make dumb rules. It gets stricter every year. When we ask anybody why, they only tell us that "that is what the Hanholah feels is fitting".
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Unread 12-24-2001, 03:52 PM   #2
rebyoel
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Jack,

When I was in Yeshivah I also wondered why they make so many rules, especially about coming exactly on time and otherwise getting a knas. So I understand where you're coming from...

But when I FINISHED Yeshivah, I finally realized how important these rules really were.

Throughout life you across a wide range of challenges, some from within (personal tragedies c”v, moodiness), and some from the outside (bad friends, co-workers, environment). Sometimes you won’t be in the mood of keeping up with your responsibilities, like Davening with a Minyan, saying Chitas, etc. And if you give that up even for a short time it makes a general weakness in your general commitment to everything you believe in. Today you’re Yetzer Hara tells you one thing, u’lmachar omer lecha asei kach...

The only solution to this is Kabbalas Ol: When the Hanhalah forces you to do things that you don’t want to and you do it anyway, it trains you to do what’s right not the lure of the moment. Kabbalas Ol is a building block of your future commitment to Yiddishkeit.

And the less you understand the rules, the better.
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Unread 12-24-2001, 03:52 PM   #3
Lubamessimaniac
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As usual, I disagree with RebYoel - "The less you understand the rules, the better." Nope! Kabbalas Ol is great, but that doesn't apply to the hearts of many teenagers. If you tella kid that, he'll say, "See ya! let me find a group that makes sense!" Instead, I think hanholois should focus on trying to get to know the bochrim personally. Kabbalas Ol happens when a person has gotten to the point where he can accept it. If a person is becoming frum, you don't tell him, "If you don't put on tfillin daily, you're going to burn," or something on those lines; He's not on that level!

Back to you, Jack: Every hanhola is different, and yes, some hanholois have jerks on them. There ain't nothing we can do about that. BUT the rules aren't there to torture you; they're there to guide you down a certain path. I would advise you to get to know hanhola better so you can be in the position to have a friendly bullshove with them! Then you can find out the various reasons behind things as they are in reality. Don't make hanhola to be your absolute enemy - because then, even if they do have a good reason, you won't allow yourself to accept it. Good luck!
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Unread 12-24-2001, 03:53 PM   #4
rebyoel
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Listen, if you feel you can't do it with Kabbalas Ol, go ahead and try to understand as much as you can. But there are some rules you'll never understand, and the value of following those rules for an extended period of time is that you become a Kabbalas Ol'nik, and you learn to do what you know is right whether you're in the mood or not. Take Bochurim that went through Yeshivos that specialize in Kabbalas Ol (Bronoy for example) and you could see on them that they are different than the rest. It's like training in an army...

But while this is true, I accept that there are teenagers that resent it and it has an opposite negative affect.

(BTW - See Sichah of Chai Elul 5737)
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Unread 12-24-2001, 03:53 PM   #5
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Well...for once I have to disagree with you Lubamessimaniac - RebYoel is correct, and once your "outside" the system you'll understand where he's coming from.

"I think hanholois should focus on trying to get to know the bochrim personally" - This is very hard in a big Yeshiva, and is not always possible. I don't understand how you relate this to keeping rules? Even if Hanhola do make the effort to know the Bochurim personally, how does this increase the chance of their rules being kept to?
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Unread 12-24-2001, 03:53 PM   #6
Jack
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This all sounds very nice, but still, why do they make rules that don't have any logic behind them? Even when they are drunk at farbrengens, they can't even tell us the logic behind it. We are not allowed to go to restaurants, most stores in the neighborhood {we do anyways}, leave the neighborhood, take off our white shirts, community events, etc. These rules aren't making anyone more Chasidish. I personaly feel that Kabbola Ol is not gonna make anybody more Chassidish. Of course I understand the need for some rules, but to really push it just doesn't make sense. If you want to get chasidishe bochurim, you make farbrengens and mivtzoim and other things, not make rules. What's with white shirts anyways?
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Unread 12-24-2001, 03:54 PM   #7
blackhorse
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Where you've got it mixed up, is that these sort of rules do not make you "chasidishe bochurim" -They make you FRUM!! The gap between being "chassidish" and being "frum" has narrowed dramatically, to a stage that being frum is considered being chassidsh!
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Unread 12-24-2001, 03:54 PM   #8
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i agree with jack. the problem with a lot of schools is they try to use external things in order to prevent them from doing things wrong. the point is to change them INSIDE so they wont WANT to do them. i mean if they dont want you to go to restaraunts- anything you can do wrong in a resteraunt u can do anywhere elseto if you really wanted to. the only way to really prevent it is to focus on adding in good instead of on he negative rules.
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Unread 12-24-2001, 03:54 PM   #9
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OK. But if they add in good, how does they get you to realize not to do things like go to restaurants?
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Unread 12-24-2001, 03:55 PM   #10
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the restuarants themselves arent bad. its what could go on in restaraunts that their trying to prevent.
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Unread 12-24-2001, 03:55 PM   #11
blackhorse
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I understand. So how do they get to realize this, if they're not told this. Just teaching them good etc. will not automatically teach them things like this are bad. If they're not told about it, and told to keep away from it, they'll just stay naive.
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Unread 12-24-2001, 03:55 PM   #12
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naive? i dont think so. . . unfortunately most teenagers nowadays are not as naive as you think. . . and going to resteraunts isnt why.
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Unread 12-24-2001, 03:55 PM   #13
Jack
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Nothing worse can happen inside a restaurant than can happen on the street.
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Unread 12-24-2001, 03:56 PM   #14
blackhorse
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This may be, but one has to start somewhere...
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Unread 12-24-2001, 03:56 PM   #15
qwert
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listen if you want to do something wrong you'll find a way to do it. thats why the schools should not make rules about external things but try to reach inside and make sure they dont want to do it to begin with.
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Unread 12-24-2001, 03:56 PM   #16
Jack
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Rules will do anything but make you frum. Not that I plan on frying out but I can see why so many people frye out. They get so upset about these rules. Also, do you see how throwing people out of Yeshiva makes people frum. It only teaches that if you can't fit in you're out.
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Unread 12-24-2001, 03:57 PM   #17
blackhorse
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There is no such thing as someone who does not fit in. If that's the case, then it's a problem with the Hanholah.
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Unread 12-24-2001, 03:57 PM   #18
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Jack:"do you see how throwing people out of Yeshiva makes people frum. It only teaches that if you can't fit in you're out. "

No, throwing people out of yeshiva doesn't make people frum. It keeps the others in the yeshiva frum, though.

Btw, I'm sure you know how unusual it is to do so (at least in most yeshivos, all that i know of) and how careful the hanhola are about this.
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Unread 12-24-2001, 03:57 PM   #19
Lubamessimaniac
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BTW, Tzfat is a yeshiva ith 300 bochrim and hanhola knows EVERY SINGLE ONE. It takes a tremendous effort, but it pays off. Jack and Qwert are right - the middle of the roaders are very much put off by Hanhola whoich thinks that it is the ultimate gift to mankind. The hanhola who have changed bochrim are the hanhlois who have worked WITH guys. Just because it's hard doesn't give them an excuse not to do it.

That doesn't mean no rules; it means know rules! Hanhola is there to LEAD the guyz! Guys should feel uncomfortable going into a restaurant, more than knowing that its against the rules! And besides, every bochur and bochurette knows that rules are meant to be broken. As soon as something is made into a rule, there's a tayva to break it.

So, yes, Blackhorse, rules are needed, but yes, communication is needed between bochrim and hanhola above all. And that I've seen in work with younger bochrim...
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Unread 12-24-2001, 03:58 PM   #20
Jack
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The fact still remains.... Sensless rules don't make anyone better. It gets students upset and the Hanholah just causes problems for themselves. By making rules all that it causes is the Bochurim try to get around them and break them. Trust me, I know. It would be something casual and it wouldn't cause any problem not having senseless rules. People would just go on in life.... It's not a big deal to sit down and eat a slice of Pizza is it?
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Unread 12-24-2001, 03:58 PM   #21
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Jack,
I understand what you mean, when I started yeshiva there where allot of things I didn't understand, but that was because I was in Yeshiva and it had to do with ME, the hanhola doesn't let ME do something, how could they do such a thing!

For example it was very hard to get reshut to go home, being the first year I really wanted to go home, and I really didn't understand why in the world they don't let me go home, just for Shabbos, I even left that yeshiva because I was so angry!

Just later on I realized that, that was my best year in yeshiva, I never learned so much, the yeshiva changed me totally, just later I understood.

The same thing happened in the other yeshiva, they have a rule that you can't play sports, and again just later I understood how good it was that they didn't let.

Every rule they make has a reason, EVERY ONE, and I'll try to explain the one of the restaurant, someone said that nothing worse could happen in a restaurant than on the street.

There are two problems: the first is that a bochur has to live in yeshiva, eat yeshiva's food etc... even if the food is not so good or it's always the same, but through that you become "chassidish", by that I mean that you get less involved in your gashmiutdike things and more into learning, Rebbe…

The second problem is even bigger, and because of that in Bnei Brak R. Landau has forbidden to have seating places after 7 PM, the reason is because when you to a restaurant many times, and it could happen even in one time, you get to know other people, that could be of the opposite gender or just people that could start influencing you.

About what RebYoel said of Kabollas Ol, I personnaly think that every rule has a reason, and coming on time is understandable, if you don't understand a rule than you have to accept it because of Kabbolas Ol, but the real Kabbolas Ol is for example you have a chasuna of a cousin and the hanholla dosen't let you go, something that you think that you have to go and they don't let you, and you accept it, that is Kabolas Ol.
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Unread 12-24-2001, 03:59 PM   #22
rebyoel
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<<We are not allowed to go to restaurants, most stores in the neighborhood {we do anyways}, leave the neighborhood, take off our white shirts, community events, etc. These rules aren't making anyone more Chasidish. I personaly feel that Kabbola Ol is not gonna make anybody more Chassidish. Of course I understand the need for some rules, but to really push it just doesn't make sense. If you want to get chasidishe bochurim, you make farbrengens and mivtzoim and other things, not make rules. What's with white shirts anyways?>>

Jack, for MOST bochurim these rules do help them become more Chassidish, it makes you feel "veniflinu" that you're different than the rest and you should live up to it. One of the advantages to wearing a hat and jacket for example is that you won't feel comfortable dropping into a store and reading a newspaper when you're dressed like that. Same things with wearing a white shirt which is a recent standard for Chabad Yeshivos, they didn't just decide one day to make such a rule: they tested it in a few Yeshivos and it had a positive affect (same idea as a uniform).

But for some Bochurim -- those who have a rebellious nature --these rules are actually damaging, that could be probably said of any rules they make even the ones that DO have reasons... It is unforunate, but to date, no has come up with a model for a "perfect" Yeshivah... Even the best of Yeshivahs had many students who went off the Derech (Starting from the Vilna Gaon's Yeshivah to Tomchei Tmimim in Lubavitch - where the FR was the principal)

The is not a perfect world, and there aren't any "One size fits all" Yeshivos, yet. Can come up with a practical patent for the "perfect Yeshivah"?
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Unread 12-24-2001, 03:59 PM   #23
Lubamessimaniac
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YES - it's called having a hanhola that cares and that is diverse enough to cover different types of bochrim. Most of the problems I have seen with other bochrim is that hanhola just doesn't care. My experience, thank G-d, was not so. I came across a hanhola that worked with me, not against. However, we need more such hanholois - and Roshei Yeshivois who understand what guys are going through, and are not just interested in making a buck.
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Unread 12-24-2001, 03:59 PM   #24
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hey
what im gonna write doesnt really have to do with this but i wanted to address it. first of all for all of you out there that ask y do yeshivas kick out kids... i had the same question.. now im stuck in a class where there is 1 person who is influencing everyone and teh whole atmosphere is changed b/c of this one person n u know what if the school would kick this person out than it would be a much better school. so i see y schools do and need to kick out kids i think that the whole class is more important than 1 person
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Unread 01-13-2002, 04:03 PM   #25
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your're right we do not sacrifice the klal for the prat

about rules: in Avos it says "v'asu siyag la'Torah." Most of the rabbinic mitzvos are in the nature of siyagim = fences. There's the d'oraisa, and in order to ensure that we don't transgress a d'oraisa, the rabbanim instituted siyagim. As the generations go on and there's a yeridas ha'doros, the more siyagim are necessary. So in one way it looks like we're getting "frumer," but in another way, it's the opposite, and these things are because we need greater protection.

For example, years ago, bachurim in yeshivos wore shirts of many different colors. Now, white shirts are mandatory. Are the white shirt wearers of today any better than the colored-shirt wearers of yesteryear bec. they wear white shirts? Of course not! At the same time though, a bachur today can't say, what was good enough for my father who was very frum in his day, is good enough for me today. It doesn't work that way.

So too with many of the rules, like not being allowed to go to certain places or do certain things. It's not that these places or things are necessarily bad (though some are), but that one thing leads to another, and some of these activities put one into a nisayon situation. We daven every day not to be brought l'dei nisayon.
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