Jewish Forum & Discussions - Chabad Talk  

Go Back   Jewish Forum & Discussions - Chabad Talk > Torah and Judaism > Moshiach

Reply
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 3 votes, 5.00 average. Display Modes
Unread 08-10-2008, 06:03 PM   #26
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
Quote:
Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
There's no need to attribute such negative motives to the other girls.
Discussing making brochos to "force" Hashem to do something is defined (at least by me) as "antics", like I write. I never mentioned "negative motives".

Last edited by Torah613; 08-10-2008 at 07:22 PM.
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-10-2008, 06:43 PM   #27
Returning
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 653
Quote:
Originally Posted by bloomingflowers View Post
http://meaningfullife.com/oped/2007/02.02.07$BeshalachCOLON_Song.php
????????? what on earth?[/quote]

BS"D

A mangled URL that leads to a meaningful essay by R' Simon Jacobson. Seems to be apropos to the topic at hand.
Returning is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-10-2008, 07:03 PM   #28
bloomingflowers
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Returning View Post

A mangled URL that leads to a meaningful essay by R' Simon Jacobson. Seems to be apropos to the topic at hand.
The only thing that came up here was a very long essay about music and the qualities it has. Is that what you wanetd me to read?

Quote:
Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
If you don't feel that you're at that point yet, then follow the prescription that the Rebbe said: increase in limmud inyonei ge'ulah u'moshiach, and bring this awareness to permeate all aspects of avodah and inspire you to increase in them, and the more you do, the more real it will become for you.
Thanks, that is definately a practical idea. Do you have anythiing specific in mind?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DW Duke View Post
It isn't a joke unless you aren't serious. If you aren't serious then you shouldn't ask for serious advice.

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm...9-a231d4cb37ee
i am serious. which song did u want me to look at over here?
bloomingflowers is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-10-2008, 09:11 PM   #29
DW Duke
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,337
Quote:
Originally Posted by bloomingflowers View Post
i am serious. which song did u want me to look at over here?
The Only One
DW Duke is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-11-2008, 12:58 AM   #30
noahidelaws
Executive Platinum Member
 
noahidelaws's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,479
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613 View Post
Discussing making brochos to "force" Hashem to do something is defined (at least by me) as "antics", like I write. I never mentioned "negative motives".
From the story, it wasn't a shtik; they obviously meant it in a tmimus'dike way, although that might be hard for some people to grasp. And bf's struggle is clearly not concerning that particular point--that was just a detail--but concerning reaching a chayus'dike, temimus'dike emunah in Moshiach in general, which those girls seem to have significantly reached. That's all.

BF: Do you follow Hebrew? If so, for starters I would suggest the sefer Toroso shel Moshiach, which contains highlights of the Rebbe's most recent words on the imminence of Moshiach and can be bought in Judaica World. Then for general inyonei Moshiach u'Ge'ulah from the Rebbe, there's MiGolah LiGeulah (also translated into English) and Shaarei Geulah, sold in Kehos. Hatzlacha!!
noahidelaws is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-11-2008, 12:17 PM   #31
ykh
Executive Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 271
I would add, that the goal of sincerety in desiring Moshiach is essentially more achievable if there is sincerety in fulfilling the commandments of Torah and directions of the Rebbe.
In otehr words, a person should work on developing feeling of genuine "geshmak" in doing mitzvos, that Tora, all its topics, would be exciting, like Mitteler Rebe wanted his chassidim meeting each other would heatedly discuss not some kind os political or inter-family news, but Yichuda Ilaa and Yichuda Tataa.
It is like for any kind of sports to get a result a person should be healthy and strong, so for a particular goal to have desire for Moshiach a person should in general get feel (not only know) need to work in davening, like learning Torah, perform mitzvos between man and man and mitzvos between man and Hashem and so on.
To have this geshmak a person should learn about it a lot and try again and again, until it becomes the second nature.
So it includes also learning about Moshiach, how terrible golus is and how good is time of Moshiach.
But if it comes without the rest, that is only this thing - Moshiach - is something of importance, and the Torah and mitzvos - not so "first importance" thing, then Moshiach is really not so important either.
ykh is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-11-2008, 12:25 PM   #32
Meshulam
Senior Diamond Member
 
Meshulam's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,427
Quote:
Originally Posted by ykh View Post
I would add, that the goal of sincerety in desiring Moshiach is essentially more achievable if there is sincerety in fulfilling the commandments of Torah and directions of the Rebbe.
In otehr words, a person should work on developing feeling of genuine "geshmak" in doing mitzvos, that Tora, all its topics, would be exciting, like Mitteler Rebe wanted his chassidim meeting each other would heatedly discuss not some kind os political or inter-family news, but Yichuda Ilaa and Yichuda Tataa.
It is like for any kind of sports to get a result a person should be healthy and strong, so for a particular goal to have desire for Moshiach a person should in general get feel (not only know) need to work in davening, like learning Torah, perform mitzvos between man and man and mitzvos between man and Hashem and so on.
To have this geshmak a person should learn about it a lot and try again and again, until it becomes the second nature.
So it includes also learning about Moshiach, how terrible golus is and how good is time of Moshiach.
But if it comes without the rest, that is only this thing - Moshiach - is something of importance, and the Torah and mitzvos - not so "first importance" thing, then Moshiach is really not so important either.
Two things:

1.) So far, there has been no indication that anyone in the above story was not keeping mitzvos b'hiddur. So why mention any of this?

2.) Obviously, it is of utmost importance to keep Torah b'hiddur. But I challenge you to find a sicho that says that one cannot truly want Moshiach unless he's already holding on such and such a level.
Meshulam is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-11-2008, 12:56 PM   #33
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
Quote:
Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
From the story, it wasn't a shtik; they obviously meant it in a tmimus'dike way, although that might be hard for some people to grasp.
Tmimus'dike antics are also antics. One can be a tmimus'dike fool... tmimus is not a heter and excuse for everything and anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meshulam View Post
2.) Obviously, it is of utmost importance to keep Torah b'hiddur. But I challenge you to find a sicho that says that one cannot truly want Moshiach unless he's already holding on such and such a level.
At risk of arousing Meshulam's ire, I would perhaps refer (בתור הערה בעלמא) to Rambam Mlochim 12:4. והמ"י.
I would have thought it is common sense.
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-11-2008, 01:19 PM   #34
ykh
Executive Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meshulam View Post
Two things:

1.) So far, there has been no indication that anyone in the above story was not keeping mitzvos b'hiddur. So why mention any of this?

2.) Obviously, it is of utmost importance to keep Torah b'hiddur. But I challenge you to find a sicho that says that one cannot truly want Moshiach unless he's already holding on such and such a level.
1. I am not writing about anyone in the above story. Besides, I am not writing about keeping mitzvos behiddur. I am writing about developing geshmak in doing mitzvos behiddur. The question was how to develop certain feeling. And my answer was to develop this feeling not only to one particular thing, and do it through avoida of mochin.
2. I did not say "cannot", I said what would be IMHO most stable, natural and fruitful way to develop true desire for Moshiach and not a fake - to try to become a "pnimi". It is highly unlikely that a non-pnimi in all respects would be pnimi in one particular area.
ykh is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-11-2008, 02:44 PM   #35
Meshulam
Senior Diamond Member
 
Meshulam's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,427
While your opinions are well-reasoned, they are nonetheless opinions. Some kind of source for your assertion that one must be a "pnimi" in all respects before he can truly desire Moshiach would be nice.
Meshulam is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-11-2008, 02:46 PM   #36
Meshulam
Senior Diamond Member
 
Meshulam's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,427
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613 View Post
At risk of arousing Meshulam's ire, I would perhaps refer (בתור הערה בעלמא) to Rambam Mlochim 12:4. והמ"י.
I would have thought it is common sense.
If you don't take risks, you never have fun. I'll get back to you when I have the source in front of me. But I think that common sense dictates that one can be strong in one area, and simultaneously weak in another area.
Meshulam is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-11-2008, 03:21 PM   #37
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
True, true. I am having a blast!
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-11-2008, 09:17 PM   #38
ykh
Executive Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meshulam View Post
While your opinions are well-reasoned, they are nonetheless opinions. Some kind of source for your assertion that one must be a "pnimi" in all respects before he can truly desire Moshiach would be nice.
When I wrote "pnimi in one aspect and not-pnimi in another" - it was to show extremely unlikely thing.
A person is either pnimi or not.
True desires, if I understand correctly, can be experienced only by a pnimi.
In order to be a pnimi, a person should work on him/herself as detailed in many places. It is by definition building a complete person of oneself.
I am saying slightly different thing from "you cannot truly desire Moshiach before you become pnimi".
It is rather creating in oneself true desire for Moshiach must be not a separate task just dedicated to itself, but a natural part of trying to become a pnimi.
ykh is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-11-2008, 10:03 PM   #39
noahidelaws
Executive Platinum Member
 
noahidelaws's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,479
I think I have a proof for Meshulam's claim:

Quote:
בשוחר טוב (תהלים מ) מצוטט: "קוה קויתי לה'", אין בידי ישראל אלא קווי כדי שיגאלו בשכר קוה קויתי".
noahidelaws is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-11-2008, 10:31 PM   #40
Meshulam
Senior Diamond Member
 
Meshulam's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,427
Quote:
Originally Posted by ykh View Post
When I wrote "pnimi in one aspect and not-pnimi in another" - it was to show extremely unlikely thing.
A person is either pnimi or not.
True desires, if I understand correctly, can be experienced only by a pnimi.
In order to be a pnimi, a person should work on him/herself as detailed in many places. It is by definition building a complete person of oneself.
I am saying slightly different thing from "you cannot truly desire Moshiach before you become pnimi".
It is rather creating in oneself true desire for Moshiach must be not a separate task just dedicated to itself, but a natural part of trying to become a pnimi.
Your aversion to sources is telling. I'll try this one more time: do you have any sources for your opinions?
Meshulam is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-12-2008, 11:19 AM   #41
ykh
Executive Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meshulam View Post
Your aversion to sources is telling. I'll try this one more time: do you have any sources for your opinions?
I am writing while at my work, where I don't have any books at hand.
Jumping to conslusion that the cause it "aversion to sources" is very telling, isn't it?
ykh is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-12-2008, 11:54 AM   #42
Meshulam
Senior Diamond Member
 
Meshulam's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,427
Quote:
Originally Posted by ykh View Post
I am writing while at my work, where I don't have any books at hand.
Jumping to conslusion that the cause it "aversion to sources" is very telling, isn't it?
I had asked you twice to bring a source, and you gave no indication that you even read my request. Rather, you just went on to explain your opinion about what a pnimi is. Like I said, your opinion is well reasoned. But unless there's a source, it remains the opinion of a single poster on an anonymous forum. The Rebbe says that inyonei geulah u'Moshiach are shayach to every Jew. He also says that every Jew truly wants Moshiach (but that their desire sometimes has to be revealed). I am wondering why your opinion trumps the Rebbe's sichos, and a source would help explain that.

I'll add that though you have expressed some frustration at my language, you have yet to provide a source. If you need time, I understand that. But at least explain yourself.
Meshulam is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-12-2008, 01:11 PM   #43
bloomingflowers
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by ykh View Post
It is rather creating in oneself true desire for Moshiach must be not a separate task just dedicated to itself, but a natural part of trying to become a pnimi.
so what ykh is saying that my emuna in moshiach is not the only thing that has ot be worked on, but my emuna as a whole, in hashem and all the mitzvos. Thats what i take from it. Meshulam doesnt seem to agree with him on the ' no resource' basis, which makes sense, although i have to say what ykh says sounds quite logical. how can a person make strong headway in one area, leaving the others far behind?

and also, maybe you can explain, ykh, what the avoda of mochin is. i am lubavitch and im sure ive heard that concept before, but a little explaining is necessary at this point as well as practical application.
bloomingflowers is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-12-2008, 01:16 PM   #44
bloomingflowers
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 14
[quote=noahidelaws;144182

BF: Do you follow Hebrew? If so, for starters I would suggest the sefer Toroso shel Moshiach, which contains highlights of the Rebbe's most recent words on the imminence of Moshiach and can be bought in Judaica World. Then for general inyonei Moshiach u'Ge'ulah from the Rebbe, there's MiGolah LiGeulah (also translated into English) and Shaarei Geulah, sold in Kehos. Hatzlacha!![/quote]

Thanks! I cant get all this at the moment but ill look into it. Yeah, I read hebrew.
bloomingflowers is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-12-2008, 02:14 PM   #45
noahidelaws
Executive Platinum Member
 
noahidelaws's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,479
ykh and Meshulam, there are many levels in emes and pnimiyus, and it's all relative to the person's current level. See the end of Tanya ch. 13.
noahidelaws is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-12-2008, 03:41 PM   #46
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meshulam View Post
The Rebbe says that inyonei geulah u'Moshiach are shayach to every Jew. He also says that every Jew truly wants Moshiach (but that their desire sometimes has to be revealed). I am wondering why your opinion trumps the Rebbe's sichos, and a source would help explain that.
Personally, I fail to see the contradiction.
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-12-2008, 03:56 PM   #47
Meshulam
Senior Diamond Member
 
Meshulam's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,427
Perhaps there is none. But I also dispute the notion that one cannot want Moshiach with an emes, and not be a pnimi in other areas.
Meshulam is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-12-2008, 08:35 PM   #48
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
Lets back up a bit: Can you see a mechalel shabbos, or an oichel treifos wanting Moshiach with an emes (obviously meaning the true meaning of Moshiach - like the Rambam I mentioned before)?

Last edited by Torah613; 08-12-2008 at 09:37 PM.
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-12-2008, 08:46 PM   #49
ykh
Executive Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613 View Post
Personally, I fail to see the contradiction.
I don't see either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meshulam View Post
The Rebbe says that inyonei geulah u'Moshiach are shayach to every Jew.
And I am not arguing against that.
One does not negate another.
Rebbe writes in Hayom yom, that one who does not dedicate him/herself to avodah of davening is going to fall down spiritually and even more so will not have any effect on others while doing spreading yiddishkeit. Rebbe also many times said that a person should do spreading yiddishkeit until s/he reaches high levels.
You may choose to see it as a contradiction. I don't see. I see it as instruction: stop fooling around and DO avoda of davening and do hafotzas maayonos.
Rebbe also said that the fact that the Moshiach did not come yet in spite of many peoply screaming "Ad mosai" is because they don't do it sincerely. On the other hand the Rebbe demands to scream "Ad mosai".
You may choose to see it as a contradiction. I don't see. I see it as instruction: become sincere and scream "Ad mosai" sincerely.
And what is avodah is written in short form in Hayom yom: it is not to uproot mountains and put oaks upside down. It is an orderly and organized way in doing stuff with kavono.
And the attitude of the one, who does everything with kavono, is described by Tzemach Tzedek: pnimi is the person who thinks of what s/he is doing at the moment, and chitzoni - who thinks of what s/he is going to do next.
In many places in Likkutei Diburim the Previous Rebbe drives the point that real avoidah is that of a pnimi.
From this klal is not it natural to derive the prat that particular avodah of striving for Moshiach should be also in the way of pnimiyus?
And is not natural to see that if one is working on developing desire to bring Moshiach and fail to view as ultimately important other instructions of the Rebbe(im) the this particular avodah is not true either, because it is in this way not fulfilling it because it is Rebbe's instruction (if it were fulfilled because it is Rebbe's instruction, then alll other instructions would have the similar ultimate importance), but rather because of a personal preference?
(Tora613 actually brought this point ad absurdum, regarding non-observant dude who is "very into Moshiach campaign". Yes it can be, but it is not likely to be deeply true, because the lack of observance shows lack of total dedication to yiddishkeit and thus shows lack of truthfullness. Of course, this mythological non-observant dude should not be discouraged, chas vesholom, but his awareness of ultimate importance of all yiddishkeit should be brought to his/her attention)

Quote:
He also says that every Jew truly wants Moshiach (but that their desire sometimes has to be revealed). I am wondering why your opinion trumps the Rebbe's sichos, and a source would help explain that.

I'll add that though you have expressed some frustration at my language, you have yet to provide a source. If you need time, I understand that. But at least explain yourself.
ykh is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-12-2008, 10:02 PM   #50
DW Duke
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,337
How do we know Moshiach hasn't come? How do we know he isn't walking amongst us, visiting our houses and smiling with amusement at our eternal quest for his arrival? How do you know you didn't say "hello" to him yesterday or the day before?

Last edited by DW Duke; 08-14-2008 at 08:29 AM.
DW Duke is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
To what extent is belief in ALL midrashim mandatory? Wolf Hashkafah 78 02-22-2010 11:22 AM
Question about ancient Jewish belief - how to get to Heaven Dario D. Yiddishkeit 18 12-28-2007 10:15 AM
Knowledge and Belief Jude Hashkafah 8 06-07-2005 06:55 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:14 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2001 - 2016 ChabadTalk.com