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Unread 05-16-2006, 10:59 AM   #126
Meshulam
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:-D T613, I've disagreed with most of what you've said about this subject... but somehow I can really relate to this last post of yours. Don't ask me why.
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Unread 05-17-2006, 12:28 AM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613
Because not everyone has the time or the gedult ( ") for endless arguments [as in: Who says the letter exists, is it in the Rebbe's handwriting, who has the Rebbe's original handwriting, how do I know it is not forged, maybe the Rebbe said not to publicize it, maybe it shouldn't have been publicized even if the Rebbe said not to, why wasn't it known before GT, why wasn't it known before 27 Adar, on what day exactly in that Adar was it written (so we can figure out what sicha was said the day beore or the day after to figure out what is , why why was it given to Binyomin and not to Leibel, how trustworthy is Binyomin vs Laibel, who says Binyomin is a mazkir, who says he can be trusted, when was he appointed etc etc. - get the picture?], especially as all this has been dealt with to some extent or another in the past.
Also: Some of the responses I have (and trust me - I do!) are answers that you will never accept, border on things , so why deal with it? To be labled a again? [Not that it bothers me..., just pointless, and it ain't no mitzvah]. Anyone who really wants an answer or at least my opinion on these questions (not just to extend an endless argument), can: 1) Look up the myriad of old threads that deal with the psak, the book, the BD etc. etc. 2) If someone really wants to know MHO on the matter (not to argue), they can PM me...
Another point: I am not really involved in these issues much these days, as my opinions and "doing this sugya" goes back many years (to the post GT era). In the spirit of , going back, rethinking the issues, with the chain of reasoning that leads me to my conclusions, takes up an unordinate amount of time. There has to be a point were I say enough (unles I am goaded enough... ).
Also: Contrary to popular opinion and perception, I do have a life to lead, things to do etc.
Also: I decided to spend more time becoming an authentic TC...
"...
[And why always the name calling?].
First of all to take offense at the word "Tory" is quite a surprise. Rather than say ANTIS or Shpitz etc , I thought Tory is both appropriate and respectful since they were the ones considered loyalistto the throne vdl. Halevai that would be the worst "insult" someone called me here on CT.
Second, I dont see why you can not answer the question even though you know I will not agree, because if it has the force of logic and truth, it may resonate with others and even with my nefesh habehamis.
With all respect to the sensitive portion of your plannedresponse, I have seen that you are skillful and can let the general analysis come through while sidestepping the really rechilesdike parts.
Finally, I believe you are familiar with the expression "sharei tirutzim lo ninalu."
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Unread 05-17-2006, 07:55 AM   #128
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Nu nu...learn pshat as you wish...whatever gores your ox, as you say. [I did not take offense at all. The term "anti" is fine with me - though in my eyes, not accurate, ].

Last edited by Torah613; 05-17-2006 at 09:29 AM.
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Unread 05-17-2006, 11:13 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613
Nu nu...learn pshat as you wish...whatever gores your ox, as you say. [I did not take offense at all. The term "anti" is fine with me - though in my eyes, not accurate, ].
So to conclude, you are not going to answer. fair enough, its a free country. as they say.
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Unread 05-19-2006, 04:39 AM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magdiel
FRUMKITE, please tell us which of my posts allegedly had the quote you (falsely? erroneously?) attributed to me.Further to clarify, do you believe the Rebbe erred when he said Hinei zeh bo? or when he said that Moshiach is coming in this generation, i.e. the 7th?
  • In post 116 you gave 3 reasons why you won't follow the ho'ra'ah of the rebbe not to publicize the identity of M.
  • The Rebbe did not err in the issue of the keitz both because he did not give a specific date (unlike the RamBan, etc) and because it's a statement bordering between a ho'da'ah and a tefillah, not a nuvua.
[It was more than just a tefilla because it was based on the special era we're in, i.e., whether or not the keitz comes, this is a special time for the keitz. If anything, more and more rabbanim are saying exactly what the Rebbe said about this being the era right before the geula - i.e., the Rebbe's words are proving correct, the interpretations of the chassidim are another story].
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Unread 05-21-2006, 01:46 AM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frumkite
  • In post 116 you gave 3 reasons why you won't follow the ho'ra'ah of the rebbe not to publicize the identity of M.
  • I am wondering how you would reconcile this statement with footnote 67 in the Rebbe's sicha from Tazria Metzorah 5751 - "and we answer as they did" (I.e. just as the Rabbis of the Talmud identified their Rabbis as Moshiach - so do we!)?
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Unread 05-21-2006, 05:57 AM   #132
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Another Candidate

Ken "Kid" Davis states it openly on page 8 of this document.
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Unread 05-21-2006, 02:49 PM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JewishHiphop
I am wondering how you would reconcile this statement with footnote 67 in the Rebbe's sicha from Tazria Metzorah 5751 - "and we answer as they did" (I.e. just as the Rabbis of the Talmud identified their Rabbis as Moshiach - so do we!)?[/list]
Why are you asking me? Ask the Rebbe (how to reconcile his clear hora'ah not to identify him as M with what you consider to be contradictions).
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Unread 05-21-2006, 03:09 PM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frumkite
Why are you asking me? Ask the Rebbe (how to reconcile his clear hora'ah not to identify him as M with what you consider to be contradictions).
G-d willing, we wil soon be able to ask him, do lamata masarah tephchim vculu.
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Unread 05-21-2006, 11:24 PM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frumkite
If a mishichist comes up with 3 excuses why he doesn't need to follow a letter written by the Rebbe's hand, it's because he's a "real chabadnik" & real chabadnikim know that what the Rebbe wants is not what the Rebbe said.
No, anymore than if the Rebbe told Reuven he should not have a heart operation, then Shimon should also not have one without getting a diect answer; or if Chiam was told to invest in Great Central, that means everyone else should invest without getting a direct answer.
The Rebbe never told me not to publicize this issue. If he told you, thats binding on you not me. The Rebbe said on more than one occassion that he says what he means and means what he says.
If the Rebbe wanted everyone to stop publicizing, then he easily could have said a simple unambiuous statement or issued a letter to all Jews, "bchol mokom she hem etc.
We know that the Rebbe gave other individuals a positive response on publicizing, and the famous one to Rabbi Bernhard(not sure of spelling) which says it depends on the locale.
I don't understand how some people are so fanatic on this issue that they distort reality.
If you have issues take it up with the right source.
I am doing what the Rebbe approves and if not, he would let me know, and I would stop on the dime.\
You think it would not be easier for me to duck and hide behind all of these tirutzim and avoid conflict with family members, friends etc, That would be the easy way, but it wouldnt be honest.
Like I said, if the Rebbe wants me to stop, I stop as soon as he communicates it to me. So far, I have not been told to stop.
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Unread 05-22-2006, 12:26 AM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magdiel
I am doing what the Rebbe approves and if not, he would let me know, and I would stop on the dime.
Such profound and amazing clarity of thought.

Quote:
You think it would not be easier for me to duck and hide behind all of these tirutzim and avoid conflict with family members, friends etc, That would be the easy way, but it wouldnt be honest.
Have you ever considered the possibility that family and friends are trying to tell you something?

Quote:
Like I said, if the Rebbe wants me to stop, I stop as soon as he communicates it to me. So far, I have not been told to stop.
More evidence of lucidity? Just a thought, did the Rebbe ever tell you to start?
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Unread 05-22-2006, 02:48 AM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frumkite
Why are you asking me? Ask the Rebbe (how to reconcile his clear hora'ah not to identify him as M with what you consider to be contradictions).

If there was a "clear hora'ah" not to identify the Rebbe as Moshiach, why did the Rebbe himself state dozens of times that Moshiach is the Nasi HaDor of the Seventh generation from the Alter Rebbe & the Ninth generation from the Baal Shem Tov (i.e., the Rebbe); that Moshiach is now sitting at the Farbrengen & he is revealed (i.e., we know who he is); Moshiach's name is Menachem; Moshiach will come & we will say "Hinai Menachem Moshiach Tzidkeinu" & "Hinai Menachem Malka Moshichah;" that Moshiach - the Shaliach of "Shelach Na B'Yad Tishlach" - is "my father-in-law the Rebbe and similarly, the continuation, his successor after him!"

The Rebbe couldn't come out & say "I am Moshiach" & that people should publicize that he is Moshiach, because Kabbalos HaMalchus has to come from us, with our own free will. If the Rebbe did come out & state "I am Moshiach," etc., we wouldn't really have free will. But the Rebbe made it very clear who is Moshiach. He didn't say it - he spelled it out!

Dovid
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Unread 05-22-2006, 03:20 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by chossidnistar
my point is that DO NOT TAKE THIS as a Mitzvah, IT IS NOT SOMEThing that has to be done.
if this is a mitzvah is Sheker b/c is not in the Rebbe's Torah
u know who Moshiach is? great! I hope u r right.Let Moshiach come
Re: "to identify who is Moshiach is not a Mitzvah."

Even though Hashavas Avaidah - returning a lost object - is a Mitzvah, still, we don't have an obligation to get up in the morning & spend the rest of the day searching for lost objects. Only when the lost object becomes "found" by us, i.e., when the lost object is brought to our attention, then we have the obligation to return it. How? By making an Hachrazah - a loud, public, verbal announcement.

Same with Moshiach. We may not have a Mitzvah to identify Moshiach, but once this "lost information" is found, i.e., once it's been brought to our attention, especially when the one bringing it to our attention is the Rebbe himself, it would seem that then we have an obligation to restore the "lost object" by making an Hachrazah, as above.

Also, if identifying Moshiach wasn't "something that should be done," then Rambam's spelling out the criteria of "how to identify Moshiach" in Hilchos Melachim would be irrelevant. And we know that's these Halachos are not irrelevant. Therefore, the concept of identifying Moshiach is sourced in Torah, which means it's OK to do, it was done, and it should be done.

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Unread 05-22-2006, 06:29 AM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olensky
... it would seem that then we have an obligation to restore the "lost object" by making an Hachrazah, as above.
You're ignoring the ho'ra'ah of the Rebbe by comparing the identification of the Rebbe as M with something that's laudable but not incumbent on us all day long.

The Rebbe didn't just "note" that it's not a mitvah asei.
  • The Rebbe actively discouraged it, calling the yechi song "absurd" and stating that he should leave the room during it but that it wouldn't help.
  • Likewise with his active discouragement of it by threatening to cut all ties to k'far Chabad magazine if they so much as published that a lub should consider the rebbe to be M (let alone a non-lub).
As for your other quotes, most are misquotes (like "Hinai Menachem Moshiach" which never happened and "M is already appointed" which the rebbe said referred took place in a posuk in Tanach, not during the Rebbe's lifetime).

Finally, any hint that the a chassid may/should believe that his Rebbe is M (without identifying him) was only in effect till 3T, afterwhich LS 35:206 tells us that the neshama of M passes on to a living Jew.
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Unread 05-22-2006, 04:34 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magdiel
G-d willing, we wil soon be able to ask him, do lamata masarah tephchim vculu.
Amen. In the meanwhile perhaps this may shed some light on the subject:
Quote:
You wrote:
>He encloses a photostat copy of the Rebbe's holy handwriting in Adar Rishon 5752
>"There is no requirement at all to seek who is Moshiach etc. However it is a positive
>commandment of the Torah to love every single Jew and to avoid conflict as so on to the
>extreme - and obviously one should not deliberately do the opposite - and this should suffice
>for the wise"

I think that using that letter as our sole basis for understanding the whole inyan creates a false impression. To begin with, I believe that that letter was written to an individual (please correct me if I am wrong), and there is a principle that you dont necessarily learn a lesson for the masses based on letter to an individual. Indeed, there are many sichos that speak about the importance of being able to point with our finger and see, zeh this is Moshiach Tzidkeinu; Menachem shmo; Tzemach Tzedek; rosh hateivos miyad; and so on.
Moreover, if that were the end of the story, why did the Rebbe MHM go on satellite with the same message before millions, encouraging Yechi Adoneinu!?
Perhaps it is not a requirement per se, but certainly it can be a crucial message when used correctly. According to Rabbi Majeski, for example, it is part of Mivtza Moshiach to identify Moshiach. Surely if that is true, in circumstances that we see no reason that there will be a conflict, it may well be the correct move (though perhaps still not a requirement) to do so. In addition, Rabbi Chaim Miller would always say that if you know vital information, out of ahavas Yisroel you would want to share it with others!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BeisMoshiach/message/99
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Unread 05-22-2006, 04:57 PM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olensky
Re: "to identify who is Moshiach is not a Mitzvah."

Even though Hashavas Avaidah - returning a lost object - is a Mitzvah, still, we don't have an obligation to get up in the morning & spend the rest of the day searching for lost objects. Only when the lost object becomes "found" by us, i.e., when the lost object is brought to our attention, then we have the obligation to return it. How? By making an Hachrazah - a loud, public, verbal announcement.

Same with Moshiach. ...
R'Dovid, I appreciated your analogy of the lost object in this case. Perhaps this may provide us with an insight in reconciling the Rebbe's private answer to an individual "there is no mitzvah to seek out who is Moshiach" with foot note 67 in Tazria Metzorah 5751, "we answer as they did" (I.e. identify our Rebbe as Moshiach).

If someone is not even asking you who Moshiach is or what your opinion is on the subject is etc., then there is no mitzvah to go out of your way to strike up a conversation specifically about Moshiach so that you can tell him what you think etc. and certainly not if it may lead to conflict and the opposite of ahavas Israel etc., (*just as there is no mitzvah to go and search for lost objects to return to their owners) however - when someone asks you who you think Moshiach is, it would seem that perhaps there is a mitzvah to "answer as they did (I.e. we too identify our Rebbe as Moshiach)" - just as when one happens upon a lost object (by Divine Providence) then there is a mitzvah to return the lost object to its owner.
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Unread 05-22-2006, 05:15 PM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frumkite
As for your other quotes, most are misquotes (like "Hinai Menachem Moshiach" which never happened and "M is already appointed" which the rebbe said referred took place in a posuk in Tanach, not during the Rebbe's lifetime).
For quotes that Moshiach's name is "Menachem" see Igrot Kodesh 1:103 and 15:311. Also allow me to remind you about the words of Rav Baruch Shapira ztz'l about whom Rav Mordechai Eliyahu testified that he was one of the 36 tzadikim!
Quote:
Leader of the 36 hidden Tzaddikim Ten years ago we entered with a few of the people of Chevron to an old house in Maale Edomim. In the house lived an old man 90+, and we were told that he's a Mekubal Rabbi. After some time Rabbi Baruch Shapira, ztzvk"l told us that he is from the 36 tzadikim nistarim, and he's their head). We of course doubted it and not really believed it until he told us that he was a true prophet and started to tell us prophecies that all came true in that year. After he was niftar Rabbi Mordechay Eliyahu attended his funreal and told us: "know that he was one of the 36 tzadikim nistarim".

And this was what was said by the same tzadik 10 years ago, and the things were written and videoed by Yoram Sharabi of Chevron, Telelphone 02-9968770 (that's 972-2-9968770 from the golus):

1) The Lubavitcher Rebbe is Melech HaMoshiach, only few will believe in him, and I also sinned in this matter.
2) Today you should rely only on Rabbi Mordechay Eliyahu. He's the biggest of Mekubalm, and only he should be trusted.
3) There will come a day when settlements in Gaza area will be evacuated and handed over to the enemy. After the Jews will leave, Hakadosh-Baruch-Hu will shake the sea and will make an earthquake in the sea near Gaza, and will come a very great wave that will wash the whole are that will become islands. Immediately afterwards the Jews will return to the area, and this is a great miracle that will happen.

If you want, publish it. You can ask Rabbi Yoram Sharabi Shlita of Chevron in the telephone above. There's also a rare video, adn anyone who wants should ask the honorable Rabbi Eliyahu if this is true or is this another invention, G-d forbid.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Post by "One who saw and heard" (email: dotan_sharabi@walla.co.il)

Amazing how right this is, I saw the video.

[On the tape] you don't hear about the tsunami, but people who heard him say that he said it, that Gush Katif will be sent away and the earth will shake in the way of "harim k'donag namasu" (tehillim) and a great wave will come.

I know someone who was there and heard and publicized his words at that time, and today people are coming to him and reminding him of what he publicized in the name of the Rav.

In the video the Rav does mention something amazing, that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is alive and he only went to beseech rachamim from those who have passed away...
http://ledavid.com/deot/viewtopic.php?p=4853



http://home.primus.ca/~aharonbenjamin/gpage.html23.html
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Unread 05-22-2006, 05:26 PM   #143
Torah613
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From post #140
Quote:
According to Rabbi Majeski, for example, it is part of Mivtza Moshiach to identify Moshiach.
I believe this is wrong - it never was part of the "mivtza", vaderabo.
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Unread 05-22-2006, 05:34 PM   #144
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Please keep to the topic of the thread.

Other issues belong elsewhere. Do a search, and you'll find an appropriate thread, probably somewhere in the Controversy Forum.

Thanks.
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Unread 05-22-2006, 07:55 PM   #145
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Rabbi D - is your post directed to me in particular, or to the whole discussion that ensued lately?
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Unread 05-22-2006, 08:04 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Torah613
Rabbi D - is your post directed to me in particular, or to the whole discussion that ensued lately?
The latter. Sorry if I implied otherwise.
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Unread 05-22-2006, 08:27 PM   #147
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Moshiach not a political office

Quote:
Originally Posted by magdiel
Who is alive today who would be considered a potential candidate for Moshaich (not including the Rebbe)? All opinions are welcome, but I am looking for specific individuals to be named, not generic descriptions.
Moshiach is not a political office that one solicits a vote. I know you mean no harm, but really, this is very disrespectful to haShem and His anointed. Saul, Yisrael's first meleck had all the proper credentials but yet failed in his mission. However, David who was not counted among his 7 brothers and thought to be a mamzer until the age of 28 was chosen by G-d. You and I have no voice in who haShem chooses as Moshiach.
And if we have no voice then really we ought not speculate on things which belong to G-d alone.

Kol Tuv.
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Unread 05-22-2006, 08:49 PM   #148
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Every Jew has a spark of Moshaichg in them!
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Unread 05-22-2006, 09:05 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaronke
Every Jew has a spark of Moshaichg in them!
Hello Aaronke.

How does this relate to the previous post? Are you saying we do have the legal right to decide who will be our Moshiach? Please explain.

Toda,
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Unread 05-23-2006, 12:07 AM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DW Duke
Such profound and amazing clarity of thought.



Have you ever considered the possibility that family and friends are trying to tell you something?



More evidence of lucidity? Just a thought, did the Rebbe ever tell you to start?
I cant comment due to reasons of client confidentiality and privilege.
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