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Unread 05-12-2006, 12:05 AM   #76
wanthetruth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chossidnistar
IMHO your name is misleading :
u know very clear that the Rebbe said that there is NOT MITZVAH KLAL to look who is Moshiach
and now you bring this BIG SHEKER as a chiddush and u want pilpulim based on sheker
if u want the truth, look for the truth, get out of your brainwash, brake this Klipah
that the rebbe said to be mekabel pnei moshiach is sheker???!!!
please, you don't be misleading to other people on this site!
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Unread 05-12-2006, 12:08 AM   #77
chossidnistar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wanthetruth
that the rebbe said to be mekabel pnei moshiach is sheker???!!!
please, you don't be misleading to other people on this site!
of course the Rebbe said to be mekabel Moshiach

your conclusion is the sheker, u say that u need to know who Moshiach is when the Rebbe said that ther is not mitzvah klal,which means that this that u take as a mitzvah, it is not a mitzvah in the Rebbe's Torah,it is not a Mitzvah klal, unless u want to make up another religion
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Unread 05-12-2006, 05:17 AM   #78
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kkkk chosidnistar obviously knows everything so i'm not going to argue with him/her................BUT
thiss thread is going out of hand. i truly beleive that chabad chassidim are doing toe Rebbe's work and bringing moshiach whoever he is. So let's stop debating, end this thread get off our chairs and go bring Him!!!
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Unread 05-12-2006, 07:15 AM   #79
gezetzt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magdiel
Gezetz; could you explain why its not shtus d'kedusha?
When you dont have the real thing you cant substitute it with a fake.

(On the holiday of Sucoss) When you dont have an Etrog you cant use a Lemon!

In our case: We have the Etrog!

We are the seventh generation, the last generation in Golus and we will be the first one in Geulah, our leader the Rebbe Nosie HaShviei Vihanitzchi!
And nesie hador is Moshiach! The Rebbe!
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Unread 05-12-2006, 01:18 PM   #80
magdiel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chossidnistar
lo rei ze krei ze ,
velo rei ze krei ze
???????
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Unread 05-12-2006, 01:23 PM   #81
magdiel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gezetzt
When you dont have the real thing you cant substitute it with a fake.

(On the holiday of Sucoss) When you dont have an Etrog you cant use a Lemon!

In our case: We have the Etrog!

We are the seventh generation, the last generation in Golus and we will be the first one in Geulah, our leader the Rebbe Nosie HaShviei Vihanitzchi!
And nesie hador is Moshiach! The Rebbe!
Gezetz, zeit mir mochel and lighten up. Amen to your post, but you still have not explained why it not shtus dekedusha?
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Unread 05-12-2006, 01:31 PM   #82
magdiel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chossidnistar
of course the Rebbe said to be mekabel Moshiach

your conclusion is the sheker, u say that u need to know who Moshiach is when the Rebbe said that ther is not mitzvah klal,which means that this that u take as a mitzvah, it is not a mitzvah in the Rebbe's Torah,it is not a Mitzvah klal, unless u want to make up another religion
Cn, why accuse Wanthetruth of Sheker? You point out its no mitzvah to search for who Moshiach is. Ok. But is it an averah? no.
Did the Rebbe say "issur gomur lechapesh zhusu shel Moshaich? no!
Did the Rebbe say the only avodah left is Kabbalas P"M? yes.
When you go to a wedding don't you want to know who the chosson and kallah are (just to make sure you are in the right place)/ Sure you do.
So, Wanty is saying if you want to do Kabbalas P"M right, you want to make sure you have the right candidate for Moshaich. So there is no sheker here, just kabbalas P nei Moshiach.
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Unread 05-12-2006, 01:56 PM   #83
Meshulam
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magdiel
Cn, why accuse Wanthetruth of Sheker? You point out its no mitzvah to search for who Moshiach is. Ok. But is it an averah? no.
Did the Rebbe say "issur gomur lechapesh zhusu shel Moshaich? no!
Did the Rebbe say the only avodah left is Kabbalas P"M? yes.
When you go to a wedding don't you want to know who the chosson and kallah are (just to make sure you are in the right place)/ Sure you do.
So, Wanty is saying if you want to do Kabbalas P"M right, you want to make sure you have the right candidate for Moshaich. So there is no sheker here, just kabbalas P nei Moshiach.
Furthermore, the Rebbe changed his position on not identifying Moshiach in 52. I'm sure someone will say otherwise, and have a cute pshat on the many things the Rebbe did publicly that made it clear he was Moshiach, and the various answers he gave people who asked if they could now identify him, v'chu. But these things are essentially revisionist history. There are videos of this stuff that make a more convincing argument than any pilpul that is likely to be posted on this site. (Not to out-crazy you Magdiel).
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Unread 05-12-2006, 02:08 PM   #84
Torah613
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And when the Rebbe crossed out the line in the sicha of Chaya Soro '52 (IIRC) which they added about identifying Moshiach? His position changed after that?
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Unread 05-12-2006, 02:20 PM   #85
magdiel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meshulam
Furthermore, the Rebbe changed his position on not identifying Moshiach in 52. I'm sure someone will say otherwise, and have a cute pshat on the many things the Rebbe did publicly that made it clear he was Moshiach, and the various answers he gave people who asked if they could now identify him, v'chu. But these things are essentially revisionist history. There are videos of this stuff that make a more convincing argument than any pilpul that is likely to be posted on this site. (Not to out-crazy you Magdiel).
Thank you Meshulam; of course i agree with you but my post was written in the spirit of da mashe etc, according to their shitas,as you can see from Torah 613's quick response, they do not accept our facts about the Rebbe implying that the time was ripe in 5752-52 such as the publication of Bsuros Hageula which stated under the nesius of the Rebbe with the the title of the redeemer after it and I can not write here to avoid censorship by the moderator of this post.
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Unread 05-12-2006, 02:24 PM   #86
magdiel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613
And when the Rebbe crossed out the line in the sicha of Chaya Soro '52 (IIRC) which they added about identifying Moshiach? His position changed after that?
There is no point in going aroung in circles again, we know the varying opinions but could you respond to my answer to CN above; do you disagree with my analysis from your shita as a reference point.
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Unread 05-12-2006, 02:47 PM   #87
Torah613
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Which post are you referring to, and clarify what you want me to respond to.
[Agav: (to put it nicely) about the veracity of the whole "Bsuras Hageulah" issue, as no one admits/claims to have been the one to have asked the Rebbe, and the story is always publicized as "a mazkir asked"... This question is not new, but was also back then in '52, as those who were around then remember.
This is also old ground, discussed at length (IIRC) in the "appelation" thread...].
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Unread 05-12-2006, 02:54 PM   #88
Torah613
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To clarify (if it helps): My comment in post # 73 was directed at the words "don't you have to know" (emphasis mine).
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Unread 05-12-2006, 03:06 PM   #89
magdiel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613
Which post are you referring to, and clarify what you want me to respond to.
[Agav: (to put it nicely) about the veracity of the whole "Bsuras Hageulah" issue, as no one admits/claims to have been the one to have asked the Rebbe, and the story is always publicized as "a mazkir asked"... This question is not new, but was also back then in '52, as those who were around then remember.
This is also old ground, discussed at length (IIRC) in the "appelation" thread...].
Post 82 reponding to Cn's attack on Wanthetruth.BTW, the fact remains that the title in BHG was printed by an official pub house of Lubavitch, and I do not remember hearing any attacks on its authenticity until after GT.
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Unread 05-12-2006, 03:17 PM   #90
Torah613
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I did hear it back then, as I wrote. [The fact that it was printed by an official pub. house means nothing, in that tekufah of ...].
My last post should help.
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Unread 05-12-2006, 04:49 PM   #91
chossidnistar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meshulam
Furthermore, the Rebbe changed his position on not identifying Moshiach in 52. I'm sure someone will say otherwise, and have a cute pshat on the many things the Rebbe did publicly that made it clear he was Moshiach, and the various answers he gave people who asked if they could now identify him, v'chu. But these things are essentially revisionist history. There are videos of this stuff that make a more convincing argument than any pilpul that is likely to be posted on this site. (Not to out-crazy you Magdiel).
The Rebbe did not change. Torah does not change.If it was not a Mitzvah , it is not. and just in case .like here that you could think otherwise, the Rebbe said "not mitzvah KLAL" KLAL
Videos mean nothing.You are refering to a few videos , , most of times the Rebbe asked to close the courtains ,ppl were singing for a refua for the Rebbe, the REBBE did not take this as an akcnowlegement, just as a tefilah like many times the Rebbe sasked for Moshiach to come before Mincha.
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Unread 05-12-2006, 04:54 PM   #92
chossidnistar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magdiel
Cn, why accuse Wanthetruth of Sheker? You point out its no mitzvah to search for who Moshiach is. Ok. But is it an averah? no.
Did the Rebbe say "issur gomur lechapesh zhusu shel Moshaich? no!
Did the Rebbe say the only avodah left is Kabbalas P"M? yes.
When you go to a wedding don't you want to know who the chosson and kallah are (just to make sure you are in the right place)/ Sure you do.
So, Wanty is saying if you want to do Kabbalas P"M right, you want to make sure you have the right candidate for Moshaich. So there is no sheker here, just kabbalas P nei Moshiach.
my point is that DO NOT TAKE THIS as a Mitzvah, IT IS NOT SOMEThing that has to be done.
if this is a mitzvah is Sheker b/c is not in the Rebbe's Torah
u know who Moshiach is? great! I hope u r right.Let Moshiach come
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Unread 05-12-2006, 06:00 PM   #93
wanthetruth
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I just thought that if you wanto be mekabel pnei moshiach then i'd assume you ought to know who that is in order to do that. please.
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Unread 05-12-2006, 06:17 PM   #94
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When the Rebbe encouraged singing Yechi (both in 52 and 53) that proved nothing? It is not a mitzvah to be a mentch either. And one can be a menuval b'reshus haTorah. That's not the issue. After the famous Chai Elul sicho to kinus hashluchim in 52, shluchim asked if they should be meforsim Moshiach's identity, and the Rebbe said yes. Take your complaints up with the Rebbe if you want. Perhaps he should not have identified himself so clearly as Moshiach, c''v, in your view. But don't play this revisionism game. Its a little nauseating.
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Unread 05-12-2006, 06:21 PM   #95
chossidnistar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meshulam
When the Rebbe encouraged singing Yechi (both in 52 and 53) that proved nothing? .
it meant a lot before 3 of Tamuz, asking for the Rebbe Refua and isgolus
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Unread 05-12-2006, 06:29 PM   #96
chossidnistar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meshulam
When the Rebbe encouraged singing Yechi (both in 52 and 53) that proved nothing? It is not a mitzvah to be a mentch either. And one can be a menuval b'reshus haTorah. That's not the issue. After the famous Chai Elul sicho to kinus hashluchim in 52, shluchim asked if they should be meforsim Moshiach's identity, and the Rebbe said yes. Take your complaints up with the Rebbe if you want. Perhaps he should not have identified himself so clearly as Moshiach, c''v, in your view. But don't play this revisionism game. Its a little nauseating.
what the Rebbe said very explicity is what is written in this tzetl, to show it in a time of need.ein mitzvah KLAL
we wanted the Rebbe to be Moshiach (and the Rebbe also) (iow The Rebbe was not saying that he was Moshiach, the Rebbe could have been ,but did not happened)before 3 of Tamuz. We failed with the yechi, ( did not help for the refua , did not help the revelation of the Rebbe as Moshiach) All these efforts were made before 3 of Tamuz, were unsuccesful.
Nothing is lost.Moshiach can come inmediately, but obviously was not as the Rebbe wanted to be (long time ago) and not as we wanted either. Hashem has different plans
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Unread 05-12-2006, 06:50 PM   #97
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Wow. In one, poorly written, barely English post on an online forum, you've managed to overturn all of the Rebbe's sichos about Moshiach. I'm impressed. Or maybe...
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Unread 05-12-2006, 09:20 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meshulam
Wow. In one, poorly written, barely English post on an online forum, you've managed to overturn all of the Rebbe's sichos about Moshiach. I'm impressed. Or maybe...
I usually overlook grammatical errors, or grammatical imprecision when someone is speaking in a second language and I try to focus on the content.
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Unread 05-13-2006, 09:37 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meshulam
After the famous Chai Elul sicho to kinus hashluchim in 52, shluchim asked if they should be meforsim Moshiach's identity, and the Rebbe said yes.
Something is not quite right here...
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Unread 05-13-2006, 11:54 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chossidnistar
what the Rebbe said very explicity is what is written in this tzetl, to show it in a time of need.ein mitzvah KLAL
we wanted the Rebbe to be Moshiach (and the Rebbe also) (iow The Rebbe was not saying that he was Moshiach, the Rebbe could have been ,but did not happened)before 3 of Tamuz. We failed with the yechi, ( did not help for the refua , did not help the revelation of the Rebbe as Moshiach) All these efforts were made before 3 of Tamuz, were unsuccesful.
Nothing is lost.Moshiach can come inmediately, but obviously was not as the Rebbe wanted to be (long time ago) and not as we wanted either. Hashem has different plans
Cn you are the one who is learning 'Torah Chadasha" here; who said we were not succesful; that only your opinion. I beleve we are on the way and the Rebbe is now in the stage described in many Midrashim, Arba Mayos Shekel, and the Rashi at the end of Sfer Daniel; what you are saying is a boich svora; You can prove to me that you are right only if the Rebbe will say so, or Moshaich comes, is succesful and it is not the Rebbe, which is unlikely.
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