Who is going to crown Mashiach?

[Soul]

next time i will just read what every one says and keep my questions about moshiach to myself.

[Chabadnika]

Originally Posted by Meshulam

B.) It makes the desire for Moshiach stronger if you have identified Moshiach, and specifically want to be lead to geula by him.

This is fine, if the desired result is reached...what about people who want to be led to geula by "him" to the exclusion of all others...and would not be willing to admit it if they would be proven wrong?

[Meshulam]

Originally Posted by Soul

and meshulam thank you for your comments, i will make it a point to never ask anyone whether mishichist or non.

Perhaps you met someone who doesn't learn earlier sichos. But I haven't, and I wouldn't want to. Frankly, that doesn't make sense.

btw
i don't live in america
i live in a chareidi community that has lots of non lub i personally don't like when frum individuals bash others
if my tone made you think i was hostile i didn't mean to, i truly wanted to know.

I agree wholeheartedly. I don't appreciate hostility. And, being labeled an M, I have experienced enough hostility to know where its coming from. I apologize if I seemed hostile to you or anyone else.

pesonally i am a tiniest bit tired of everyone biting off heads because i asked questions that i truly don't know the answer to

Fair enough. I don't think I was biting anyone's head off. I too have questions whose answers I don't know. I am curious why some people write off their obligations to teach about Moshiach (whether identifying the Rebbe or not), since the Rebbe spoke so strongly about it.

[Meshulam]

Originally Posted by Chabadnika

This is fine, if the desired result is reached...what about people who want to be led to geula by "him" to the exclusion of all others...and would not be willing to admit it if they would be proven wrong?

Two answers:

A.) I trust that said people won't be disappointed.

but...

B.) Since, r''l, we have not experienced geula as yet, I don't know how practical this question is. Nobody has been proven wrong, so the existence of those who "would not be willing to admit it..." is not established. The question was actually quite presumptuous.

[Chabadnika]

I just mean to say that some people have focused on the "who" and allowed it to take over completely...and some of the other important things have been pushed aside. If worrying about the "who" brings someone closer, then fine. But once it becomes another distraction/yeshus/colloquial "avoda zara" etc., then it's a problem.

[Torah613]

I purposely didn’t answer the above questions, as I neither have the time, inclination, gedult and patience. Also, my responses should (in the main) be fairly obvious by now, so why bother again...
But concerning the following issue there is a point or two that I would like to make:

Originally Posted by Chabadnika

This is fine, if the desired result is reached...what about people who want to be led to geula by "him" to the exclusion of all others...and would not be willing to admit it if they would be proven wrong?

Reminds me of the vort they say in the name of the Alter Rebbe(?) whether Moshiach will be aChosid or Misnagid, and the answer a misnaged, for if he was a chosid misnagdim will not accept him etc. - so we see such a phenomena can exist, if not accepting him if he doesn’t conform to preconceived notions ...
As to the following response

Originally Posted by Meshulam

Two answers:

A.) I trust that said people won't be disappointed.

but...

B.) Since, r''l, we have not experienced geula as yet, I don't know how practical this question is. Nobody has been proven wrong, so the existence of those who "would not be willing to admit it..." is not established. The question was actually quite presumptuous.

As for A), I would respond in a vein similar to the famous smile of the AR...
As for B), I believe there is a nafka minah lemaaseh, concerning the whole ikkur of the belief in the coming of Moshiach, and the אחכה לו demanded by the Rambam. Namely, by limiting the belief in who will be (or is...) Moshiach to a certain individual (in our case - the Rebbe), which can only be if certain scenarios take place - scenarios that are mentioned no where in the literature - namely, a prior tchiya even to the tchiya of tzaddikim, a tchiya specific to Moshiach which is the only thing that enables him to be Moshiach (for without that, it is impossible for him to be Moshiach!) - in my mind, uproots the whole ikkur (at least to large extent) of the אחכה לו בכל יום שיבא, in addition to uprooting the possibility of Moshiach coming bederech hateva etc. etc...
That is the difference (or rather - one of the differences...), whether one says the Rebbe “can” be Moshiach (which can also be debated whether correct or not), or the Rebbe “will” be Moshiach.
ואין כאן מקומו להאריך!

[Soul]

i went to the link for gil student.
i read what he said and i reread the thread here
more clarification needed
1. is the Rebbe bechezkas Moshiach?
has he compelled all of israel to walk in the way of Torah? I think he is known all over the world and thru his Shluchim have gotten alot of not yet frum jews to observe some mitzvots, i have worked in chabad houses and we all know this is an uphill battle for the shluchim getting the members to become shomer mitzvot.
repair the breaches in observance,i think we are still working on that one.
fight the wars of G-d. this is the Rebbe's whole directive
For the Rebbe to be considered Moshiach there are the next two categories (i am ready from the text of gil student)
build the beis H in its place (this is only in israel right?)
gather the dispersed exiles of israel
this for sure hasn't happened.
so how can the Rebbe be Moshiach? it doesn't fit the Rambam's qualifications.
i don't think there has been the destruction of Amalek (maybe some) but not the destruction(gil S. prints sichos vol 16 pp 304-305)
who is Moshiach ben Yosef? doesn't he have to come before Moshiach ben Dovid?
is it a play on words moshiach ben dovid will be concealed not die?concealed means to me you don't know the person is MbD (sort of like the hidden tzadikkim) The Rebbe is known by a lot of people if not by name for sure by face.
have we merited to skip Moshaich ben Yosef and go directly to Moshaich ben Dovid?
If the Rebbe mentions these things above then tell me which Sicho it is,can i get it online.
and since the Rambam is the one that mentions Moshaich and the qualifications etc show me where he says something different than above.
i do believe if you look in every sefer take every paragraph that proves your point you can come up with whatever point you are trying to make.
and don't bite my head off
but.................
l'havdil l'havdil,l'havdil (can't say that enough)
the people who believe shabtai tsvi was Moshaich???? i am not saying the Rebbe is like Shabtai Tsvi chas v'shalom but the people who wanted to believe so much found sources to prove their point that he was Moshiach is this what we are doing?
please don't bite my head off!!!!
i can see everyone on this site has the zchus of learning a lot of sichos and learn in lub yeshivos so for someone who hasn't, i ask these questions to know more and more(i don't even know if i am politically correct) the more i want to learn the more questions i have which is frustrating in it self.

[rebayzl]

******ian Missionaries also "Quote Scripture". Means nothing.

[Soul]

ok........
didn't understand that statement(who is talking about xtians?)
i'm addressing gil students link about moshiach i am asking for clarification about what he said.

[Chabadnika]

Either you're here to ask about Lubavitch views about Moshiach or about Gil Student. It's unfair to learn about Lubavitch and Moshiach through Gil Student, just like you wouldn't ask a history professor to explain calculus, or a Zionist about the Satmar Rav.

Please pick a topic and stick to it.

[Soul]

i didn't know he wasn't lub. i saw the link on this thread and i went to it to see what it was about. only then did i have the questions.

[Meshulam]

If anything, that proves the risk of having a place like Chabadtalk where someone can innocently happen upon Gil Student's site.

If you look around the web, you'll find that there are many people who refute Gil's works about the Rebbe and Moshiach. You'll find that, outside of his site, his works aren't really taken that seriously (all of the so-called gedolim who have condemned either Lubavitch or just the "mishichist faction," have relied on their own pilpulim rather than Gil's in order to arrive at their ill-informed opinions.) I'll say for Gil that he tends to be somewhat more respectful than some of our other detractors on the web, but his fancy pilpulim are just that: fancy pilpulim that are hardly the last word on this subject. As I have said, he has been refuted. This is neither the time nor the place to get into the details, because doing so would mean quoting Gil Student (in order to refute him), and I'm not interested in doing that.

If anyone is the final word on this subject, it is the Rebbe himself. I think that the best place to find out about this subject is in the Rebbe's own sichos. Specifically, if you learn the sichos he gave between 1987 and 1992 (particularly 91 and 92), you'll find that there is more there then a strong emphasis on bringing Moshiach. But that's something I believe you should do for yourself.

The worst thing would be for you to let your opinion be made based on an argument you read in an online message board (or weblog) where the credentials (or, more likely, lack thereof) are hidden behind pseudonyms, and where moderators frequently have to censor the angry rabble. :-)

[Soul]

If anyone is the final word on this subject, it is the Rebbe himself. I think that the best place to find out about this subject is in the Rebbe's own sichos. Specifically, if you learn the sichos he gave between 1987 and 1992 (particularly 91 and 92), you'll find that there is more there then a strong emphasis on bringing Moshiach. But that's something I believe you should do for yourself.
where do i find those sichos online
are they available on the website sichosinenglish?ifso what is the hebrew year.
thanks

[Torah613]

What exactly was Gil Student mechadesh, that has to be "refuted"? What "fancy pilpul" did he write? And who did the refuting?

[Meshulam]

I will try to find a site that has good translations of these sichos. SIE does not do full translations of those sichos from what I have been able to tell. They take small selections from these sichos and translate them, but they more often than not translate parts of the sichos in which the Rebbe is either not talking about Moshiach, or talking vaguely about Moshiach.

[Meshulam]

Originally Posted by Torah613

What exactly was Gil Student mechadesh, that has to be "refuted"? What "fancy pilpul" did he write? And who did the refuting?

I said above that I don't want quote his opinions on this forum even for the sake of refuting them. If you want to know the answer to your own question, go to Gil's site yourself and read his "chiddushim" and then read the various comments to them which refute them. There are other pages as well in which his comments are refuted. One commentator about a year ago stated his desire to create a blog dedicated to refuting Gil's comments about the Rebbe. I don't know if he has done so yet, because I haven't been to his site in a year now. But you can look for that too if you want.

Lest you desire to come to his defense, ask The Eigth King about his debate with Gil in which Gil (among other things) called the Alter Rebbe's Tanya a "heresy" and an "insult to G-d." This guy isn't exactly someone we need to consult when formulating our opinions about Chabad issues. That's the only point I was making above. I imagined you would agree with me.

[JewishHiphop]

Originally Posted by Meshulam

If anything, that proves the risk of having a place like Chabadtalk where someone can innocently happen upon Gil Student's site.

If you look around the web, you'll find that there are many people who refute Gil's works about the Rebbe and Moshiach. You'll find that, outside of his site, his works aren't really taken that seriously (all of the so-called gedolim who have condemned either Lubavitch or just the "mishichist faction," have relied on their own pilpulim rather than Gil's in order to arrive at their ill-informed opinions.) I'll say for Gil that he tends to be somewhat more respectful than some of our other detractors on the web, but his fancy pilpulim are just that: fancy pilpulim that are hardly the last word on this subject. As I have said, he has been refuted. This is neither the time nor the place to get into the details, because doing so would mean quoting Gil Student (in order to refute him), and I'm not interested in doing that.

If anyone is the final word on this subject, it is the Rebbe himself. I think that the best place to find out about this subject is in the Rebbe's own sichos. Specifically, if you learn the sichos he gave between 1987 and 1992 (particularly 91 and 92), you'll find that there is more there then a strong emphasis on bringing Moshiach. But that's something I believe you should do for yourself.

The worst thing would be for you to let your opinion be made based on an argument you read in an online message board (or weblog) where the credentials (or, more likely, lack thereof) are hidden behind pseudonyms, and where moderators frequently have to censor the angry rabble. :-)

For those interested - information about a debate between Rabbi Immanuel Shochet and Professor David Berger on this subject, may be accessed here: (These are two of the foremost experts on the topic...)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/redemp.../message/12055

[JewishHiphop]

Originally Posted by Soul

If anyone is the final word on this subject, it is the Rebbe himself. I think that the best place to find out about this subject is in the Rebbe's own sichos. Specifically, if you learn the sichos he gave between 1987 and 1992 (particularly 91 and 92), you'll find that there is more there then a strong emphasis on bringing Moshiach. But that's something I believe you should do for yourself.
where do i find those sichos online
are they available on the website sichosinenglish?ifso what is the hebrew year.
thanks

www.otzar770.com - there are also a few sichos translated to English somewhat decently at www.moshiach.ca

[Torah613]

Originally Posted by Meshulam

I said above that I don't want quote his opinions on this forum even for the sake of refuting them. If you want to know the answer to your own question, go to Gil's site yourself and read his "chiddushim" and then read the various comments to them which refute them. There are other pages as well in which his comments are refuted. One commentator about a year ago stated his desire to create a blog dedicated to refuting Gil's comments about the Rebbe. I don't know if he has done so yet, because I haven't been to his site in a year now. But you can look for that too if you want.

I read his book, and didn't find "chiddushim", rather uncomfortable sources (for some)...
Whatever.

[The Eighth King]

Originally Posted by Meshulam

Lest you desire to come to his defense, ask The Eigth King about his debate with Gil in which Gil (among other things) called the Alter Rebbe's Tanya a "heresy" and an "insult to G-d."

Without involving myself in this discussion; I would just like to point out that not every "Gil" on the internet is "Gil Student," and the above is an assumption on your part Meshulam. I have been informed that the Gil with whom I had the aformentioned discussion is not Gil Student.

[Meshulam]

Originally Posted by The Eigth King

Without involving myself in this discussion; I would just like to point out that not every "Gil" on the internet is "Gil Student," and the above is an assumption on your part Meshulam. I have been informed that the Gil with whom I had the aformentioned discussion is not Gil Student.

Wow. That's pretty weird. So I guess that example was not the best one. Suffice it to say, he is not a great supporter of Chareidim in general, or Chabad in particular.

[DW Duke]

The question whether Rebbe is/was moshiach becomes moot if the real moshiach arrives to take his proper place in history. If Rebbe wasn't moshiach, it is indeed interesting that he said repeatedly that moshiach is alive today. Is it possible that Rebbe was speaking in the spirit of Elijah? If so, then it would seem that moshiach is indeed alive today and is someone other than Rebbe.

[Meshulam]

I have spoken with some folks (powers that be, is it were) who have told me that nobody has really taken the time to translate most or any of the later sichos in their entirety. SIE, which is a wonderful organization, has shied away from producing the later sichos. In a couple of places, they have translated parts of the later sichos, but left other parts untranslated. The "moshiach stuff" is among the latter untranslated parts.

However, there are currently a couple of people working on this project. One of them has already published a translation of the famous Beis Rabbeinu She'b'bavel sicho, under the name "The Moshiach In-Depth Study Series." To order that, you can call 718-771-7290.

Others are on their way.

To Soul: Like I said earlier, I think that the best thing to do is to learn these sichos in depth. I think you'll come to the conclusion that I have: that the Rebbe a) identified himself as Moshiach and b) that he prepared us for Gimel Tamuz 5752. If not, then at least you've made an informed decision. I wish I could have given you better leads, but it turns out that most of this stuff remains untranslated. Hopefully, that will change. Even better: Hopefully, Moshiach will be revealed immediately.

[DW Duke]

Originally Posted by Meshulam

I have spoken with some folks (powers that be, is it were) who have told me that nobody has really taken the time to translate most or any of the later sichos in their entirety. SIE, which is a wonderful organization, has shied away from producing the later sichos. In a couple of places, they have translated parts of the later sichos, but left other parts untranslated. The "moshiach stuff" is among the latter untranslated parts.

However, there are currently a couple of people working on this project. One of them has already published a translation of the famous Beis Rabbeinu She'b'bavel sicho, under the name "The Moshiach In-Depth Study Series." To order that, you can call 718-771-7290.

Others are on their way.

To Soul: Like I said earlier, I think that the best thing to do is to learn these sichos in depth. I think you'll come to the conclusion that I have: that the Rebbe a) identified himself as Moshiach and b) that he prepared us for Gimel Tamuz 5752. If not, then at least you've made an informed decision. I wish I could have given you better leads, but it turns out that most of this stuff remains untranslated. Hopefully, that will change. Even better: Hopefully, Moshiach will be revealed immediately.

He will, once he finishies learning the Hebrew Alphabet.

[JewishHiphop]

Originally Posted by DW Duke

The question whether Rebbe is/was moshiach becomes moot if the real moshiach arrives to take his proper place in history. If Rebbe wasn't moshiach, it is indeed interesting that he said repeatedly that moshiach is alive today. Is it possible that Rebbe was speaking in the spirit of Elijah? If so, then it would seem that moshiach is indeed alive today and is someone other than Rebbe.

According to the halacha the Rebbe has been ruled to be b'chezkas Moshiach already by hundreds of Rabbonim. http://www.psakdin.org/en/
http://www.moshiachfacts.com/index.p...er=3&section=3
http://www.moshiach.net/blind/count.htm