Jewish Forum & Discussions - Chabad Talk  

Go Back   Jewish Forum & Discussions - Chabad Talk > Torah and Judaism > Moshiach

Reply
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Unread 12-06-2005, 03:52 PM   #1
Intrigued
Senior Member
 
Intrigued's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 213
Question Who is going to crown Mashiach?

It would appear that the annointing of Mashiach occurs from Hashem.
The acceptance of Mashiach is left up to the people.
But who crowns Mashiach?
Intrigued is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-06-2005, 06:30 PM   #2
SPG613
Senior Member
 
SPG613's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by Intrigued
It would appear that the annointing of Mashiach occurs from Hashem.
The acceptance of Mashiach is left up to the people.
But who crowns Mashiach?
What is the definition of "crowning" in this context?
SPG613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-06-2005, 06:50 PM   #3
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
And what is the meaning of "acceptance" (with sources, if possible)?
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-06-2005, 07:29 PM   #4
Hiskashrus
Diamond Member
 
Hiskashrus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,450
a melech must be ברצון העם if not then he's just a שולט.

אך ע"פ הנ"ל קבלת המלכות היא גם הכתרתו
__________________
Hiskashrus: available at a sforim shank near you
Hiskashrus is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-06-2005, 08:01 PM   #5
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
Yes, I of course know that. I am asking specifically concerning Moshiach, that their is a (Halachik?) concept of having to "accept" Moshiach, after he is appointed/annointed by Hashem as an actual (not potential) Moshiach. [Please don't refer me to Wolpoe's works...].
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-06-2005, 08:09 PM   #6
Hiskashrus
Diamond Member
 
Hiskashrus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,450
לכאורה אינו כן דהרי מבואר בהכתוב "ושב הוי'...כו'...יד ביד היינו בהכרח ומוכח שאין צורך (במציאות עכ"פ) לקבלת מלכותו.!

but what about all of that kabolas hamalchus stuff?
__________________
Hiskashrus: available at a sforim shank near you
Hiskashrus is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-06-2005, 08:19 PM   #7
JewishHiphop
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,180
I think that the tochen of the sicha of Beis Nissan 5748 may be related...
JewishHiphop is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-06-2005, 09:27 PM   #8
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiskashrus
what about all of that kabolas hamalchus stuff?
What "kabolas hamalchus" stuff?
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-07-2005, 01:40 AM   #9
Hiskashrus
Diamond Member
 
Hiskashrus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,450
oh, sorry - i forgot, it's not kabolas MALCHUS moshiach tzidkeinu, rather kabolas PNEI...

ooops!
__________________
Hiskashrus: available at a sforim shank near you
Hiskashrus is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-07-2005, 08:33 AM   #10
mordechai7215
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,136
K'yedua when by Yud Shvat tuv shin lamed the Rebbe took out the Kesser for Moshiachs Sefer Torah V'dal.
mordechai7215 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-07-2005, 08:53 AM   #11
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
"K'yedua...V'dal"...how helpful...
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-07-2005, 09:12 AM   #12
mordechai7215
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,136
I didn't want to offend you with the thoughts of mishachstin
mordechai7215 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-07-2005, 09:23 AM   #13
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
Offend me?! I don't get offended.
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-07-2005, 11:00 AM   #14
Yankel Nosson
Senior Platinum Member
 
Yankel Nosson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,259
Offended?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613
Offend me?! I don't get offended.
Not offended, just obsessive
__________________
Chassidim must study Chassidus--HaYom Yom 21Kislev
Yankel Nosson is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-07-2005, 03:19 PM   #15
Hiskashrus
Diamond Member
 
Hiskashrus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,450
but i don't think it will be a problem,

wouldn't one of the qualifications of moshiach vadai be that he is accepted among klal yisroel? how else would he be able to build the BH, fight wars?

and how would the "menagdim" suddenly want to crown him?
__________________
Hiskashrus: available at a sforim shank near you
Hiskashrus is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-07-2005, 09:13 PM   #16
JewishHiphop
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,180
Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiskashrus
but i don't think it will be a problem,

wouldn't one of the qualifications of moshiach vadai be that he is accepted among klal yisroel? how else would he be able to build the BH, fight wars?

and how would the "menagdim" suddenly want to crown him?
Maybe if they would feel that it is their best interests to do so. What's in it for them?
JewishHiphop is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-31-2005, 04:44 PM   #17
Frumkite
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 828
Rebbe quote against moshiach from non-living

Do any of the mishichistim have an answer to what Gil Student brings in his anti-mishichist book in the name of the Rebbe:

Quote:

Evidently, we must say that David
HaMelech cannot himself be the
Melech HaMoshiach who will be "a
leader for them forever" because the
initial work of the Melech
HaMoshiach will be
before the
redemption, as explained in the
Rambam (Hilchos Melachim 11:4)
and certainly before the resurrection
(including the righteous who arise
immediately, as Chazal say (Yoma
5b) "Moshe and Aharon with us").
(Likutei Sichos vol. 35 p. 206 n. 6)

דוד ןיאש לצכע הרואכלו
חישמה ךלמ ומצעב ךלמה

,
םלועל םהל אישנ יהיש
ךלמ תלועפ תליחת ירהש

,
הלואגה םדוק היהת חישמה
לה
) םבמרב ראובמכ
יאדובו
,(דה איפ םיכלמ
םג
) םיתמה תחת םדוק
לזחכ
,דימ םימקה םיקידצד
ןרהאו השמ
(ב,ה אמוי)
.(
ונמע
Quote:
Gil Student:
"According to the Rebbe, David HaMelech cannot be
Moshiach because Moshiach cannot come from the dead.
This is true even though there will be a resurrection of the
righteous – Moshe and Aharon in particular. Despite this,
King David cannot be Moshiach because he is dead. This is
notwithstanding the fact that King David was certainly
righteous and therefore has the ability to visit this world in a
physical form and, according to the Sefer Chasidim, say
kiddush for others. Nevertheless, the Rebbe said that he
cannot be Moshiach. Now, after the Rebbe's unfortunate
passing, we must follow the Rebbe and say the same about
him. He cannot be Moshiach." http://moshiachtalk.tripod.com/moshiach_chap4.pdf

[The Ivrit got reversed above]

Frumkite is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-31-2005, 07:16 PM   #18
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
Check out the relevant threads, this footnote from the Rebbe was discussed here many many times.
What the M'n do? Either they ignore it, or they distort the simple meaning of the footnote beyond recognition... IOW the same thing they do to the Rambam...
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-01-2006, 06:36 AM   #19
JewishHiphop
Diamond Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frumkite
Do any of the mishichistim have an answer to what Gil Student brings in his anti-mishichist book in the name of the Rebbe:


[The Ivrit got reversed above]


The answer to this is very simple. It is a wonder to me that people can even fall for this faulty inconsistent reasoning.
a) The Rebbe did begin the peulos of Moshiach before Gimmel Tammuz
http://www.psakdin.org/en/
b) The Rebbe is 'Chai VeKayam' - so mimanefshach there is no question miykara.
Quote:
Leader of the 36 hidden Tzaddikim Ten years ago we entered with a few of the people of Chevron to an old house in Maale Edomim. In the house lived an old man 90+, and we were told that he's a Mekubal Rabbi. After some time Rabbi Baruch Shapira, ztzvk"l told us that he is from the 36 tzadikim nistarim, and he's their head). We of course doubted it and not really believed it until he told us that he was a true prophet and started to tell us prophecies that all came true in that year. After he was niftar Rabbi Mordechay Eliyahu attended his funreal and told us: "know that he was one of the 36 tzadikim nistarim".

And this was what was said by the same tzadik 10 years ago, and the things were written and videoed by Yoram Sharabi of Chevron, Telelphone 02-9968770 (that's 972-2-9968770 from the golus):

1) The Lubavitcher Rebbe is Melech HaMoshiach, only few will believe in him, and I also sinned in this matter.
2) Today you should rely only on Rabbi Mordechay Eliyahu. He's the biggest of Mekubalm, and only he should be trusted.
3) There will come a day when settlements in Gaza area will be evacuated and handed over to the enemy. After the Jews will leave, Hakadosh-Baruch-Hu will shake the sea and will make an earthquake in the sea near Gaza, and will come a very great wave that will wash the whole are that will become islands. Immediately afterwards the Jews will return to the area, and this is a great miracle that will happen.

If you want, publish it. You can ask Rabbi Yoram Sharabi Shlita of Chevron in the telephone above. There's also a rare video, adn anyone who wants should ask the honorable Rabbi Eliyahu if this is true or is this another invention, G-d forbid.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Post by "One who saw and heard" (email: dotan_sharabi*walla.co.il)

Amazing how right this is, I saw the video.

[On the tape] you don't hear about the tsunami, but people who heard him say that he said it, that Gush Katif will be sent away and the earth will shake in the way of "harim k'donag namasu" (tehillim) and a great wave will come.

I know someone who was there and heard and publicized his words at that time, and today people are coming to him and reminding him of what he publicized in the name of the Rav.

In the video the Rav does mention something amazing, that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is alive and he only went to beseech rachamim from those who have passed away...
http://ledavid.com/deot/viewtopic.php?p=4853


http://www.moshiach.ca/gpage.html23.html
Also see the following:
Quote:
Moshiach Has Everlasting Life

1) *The Arizal, one of the most important Kabbalists who lived 400 years ago, writes in his book, Sha'ar HaGilgulim (chapter 13), that Moshiach does not die. After Moshiach reveals himself, there is a period of concealment, and then he is revealed again.

2) *Yaakov our Father did not die. Rashi says that Yaakov our Father did not die; it just seemed to the people as if he had died. Even though the Egyptians embalmed and buried him, Torah asserts that he lives spiritually and physically. Therefore, the Torah teaches us that although our physical eyes may tell us one thing, the Torah establishes what the true reality is.

3) The leader of the generation, like the Even HaShesiya (Foundation Stone of the world and the Holy Temple), exists eternally in the physical world and is not subject to burial (geniza). In 5751 (1991), the Rebbe said the following:

"And in the most general sense, the entire world becomes a private domain saturated with the singular essence of the 'Lone Master of the World.' The way He reveals Himself in the world through His prophet whom He anoints, since the 'Nasi is everything' and 'the tzaddik is the foundation of the world. This phenomenon (of 'the tzaddik...') can be compared to the Even HaShesiya. *This age-old rock exists eternally in this physical world, and is not subject to any sort of variation, not even the variation of being stored away like the Holy Ark, which was stored away. The same is true with regard to the judge and prophet of the generation. A judge and prophet must exist perpetually in every generation as a sign of Hashem's constant manifestation in the world, that from Him is derived the existence of the entire world."

With this, the Rebbe is clearly implying that he is like the foundation stone. He exists forever and is not subject to any sort of physical change, even if the opposite appears to be true.
http://www.jewishwomenunited.org/

Last edited by JewishHiphop; 01-01-2006 at 06:39 AM.
JewishHiphop is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-01-2006, 07:08 AM   #20
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
הוא אשר דיברתי...
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-01-2006, 05:33 PM   #21
Frumkite
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 828
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kol Mevaser
a) The Rebbe did begin the peulos of Moshiach before Gimmel Tammuz
http://www.psakdin.org/en/
b) The Rebbe is 'Chai VeKayam' - so mimanefshach there is no question miykara.
http://www.moshiach.ca/gpage.html23.html
Kodem kol, tzarich lomar - I have never posted on this subject and had no interest in doing so till I saw the overlap (at least with Mevaser and a small handful of others I know) between extreme mishichistism and AZ.

Obviously, if he could accept the Rebbe's hishtalshlus and the passing of the identity of "best candidate for Moshiach" to another, he would also accept the Rebbe's lack of divinity.

Thus, for that purpose, I note that:
a - the p'sak din says nothing about the Rebbe having accomplished tichilas puelos melech hamoshiach. In fact, no mention is made of any of those peulos (Compelling all of Israel to walk in the way of Torah, build the Beis Hamikdash, gather in the dispersed exiles of Israel).
b - Chai v'kayam is davka from the statement about Dovid Hamelech. Dovid Hamelech is davka the center of the entire quote from the Rebbe. The Rebbe holds that whatever kind of passing Dovid had, despite the fact that we say Dovid ... chai v'kayam, cannot be Moshiach due to his passing.

Last edited by Frumkite; 01-01-2006 at 05:40 PM.
Frumkite is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-01-2006, 06:28 PM   #22
Hiskashrus
Diamond Member
 
Hiskashrus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,450
frumkite. although i would usually hold with you on such a topic, i don't think that it was appropriate to blow this thread into a Rebbe Moshiach thread. but once youv'e started with it, i now feel the want to respond and make clarifications about this once and for all.

as many of you know, i am not all that well-versed in halacha, rambam, or gemara, neither (kemuvan) am i boki in every single meforash, so my response won't be of the same caliber as one who does. but i will attempt to make some things clear.

i have had the oppurtunity to see some of the "proofs" and "sources" that are presented from the gemara, rambam, and the rest. non of them were highly impressive. furthermore, the ones which were a bit more valid were weakened in their potency by the M's throwing every single catch phrase that they could in order to publicize their agenda. i won't go in depth about every single source, but there are people over here at CT who can (and did). Common sense and logic (as well as any light brush with standard learning) would dictate that these "sources" are rather week and at the best - not comprehensable, but none are anything but a far cry from convincing.

the rebbe's sichos enter an entirely new and different category, which would again make things much more complex than they really are, especially considering the fact that most of these topics (especially moshiach) was discussed in light of some rather deep concepts in niglah and chassidus. so i don't think that any direct proof can be made from that, besides the fact that we can only assume that the rebbe had come to explain and comment on the pshat of melech and rav, and not about if moshiach can come from the dead, for obviously dovid cannot immediately be moshiach (since moshiach has to start changing the world before tchiyas hameisim).

a brief glance into the sicha (and into the general flow and discussion of the context) will shed some more light on this issue, as well as bring more proof to a very well overlooked point which has been missed in both this thread, and in the atzmus thread (and if one will be meayin into both threads, they will see some rather contradictding logic between them).

in the sicha (which i had learned very well, some time ago) the rebbe stresses that the many of ma'alos and attributes that were promised and prophecized for the times of moshiach, aren't necessarily in requirement of different people, (nosi and melech) but are generally included in the same person, or the same being, only that different pesukim focus on different maalos. this is the context of the sicha (which goes to further explain the "bli gvul" and uniqueness of moshiach who will be a rav and nosi (kiruv and richuk) to the nation... whatever). hence, to say that this ha'ara is going for or against the rebbe being moshiach would certainly not come from learning the sicha in it's proper context. and once you take something out of context, the light is lost (כענין צמצום בדרך מיעוט). the ha'arah (as well as the other haaros that the rebbe refers to later in the note) point to and speak about the above - moshiach not being limited to a specific body since the enclothment isn't important. for although moshiach must be a human person, and that person must be a nosi and melech, the actual meat (dam ubosor) of moshiach is rather irrelevant - does moshiach actually have to have tzoraas?) or does moshiach actually have to be born on tisha b'av. in fact, the focus of the sicha was on the neshomo of moshiach (which is why the nosi and melech don't have to be two seperate individuals) which is a special neshomo that is in every generation in it's leader.

we currently find ourselves twelve years after gimmel tammuz. the rebbe's neshama is not enclothed in his body (....) and therefore his body cannot be moshiach (as it says in the sicha). but if one truly believes that the rebbe is moshiach, then wouldn't that be the emunah in the neshomo? for the body is domem and lifeless without the neshama (and after histalkus, only a "portion" of the neshama remains "hovering" around the body, which is why people daven at kivrei tzadikim) and is not within terms of a body that can be moshiach. i don't know what theories and svoros one can invent, whether there will be a special nes of tchiyas hameisim, and the rebbe's neshama (nishmas moshiach) will be one again with the rebbe's body, or if the neshama is destined to be in another body. we can only hope and believe.

attempting to prove that the rebbe is moshiach (based on the above) is rather ludicrous, and the rebbe points that out in the note.

if one still wants to consider himself a chossid and a mekushar, and still attempt to believe that the rebbe, as he is in bosor v'dom, will come and redeem klal yisroel, then it can only be (logically) in one of the ways mentioned above. but to go and prove from halacha that the rebbe is (and can) be moshiach is rather obsurd and in contrast with the essential concept of moshiach (nishmaso shel moshiach).

p.s.
those who will check my posts would know that i am not an M by any stretch of the imagination.
__________________
Hiskashrus: available at a sforim shank near you
Hiskashrus is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-01-2006, 07:14 PM   #23
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
I didn't really understand much of the above post (and the point you are trying to make), therefore I cannot comment, but I think that the footnote referenced is clear as can be, especially in light of the fact the the Rebbe makes the identical point elsewhere (without the arichus).
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-01-2006, 08:10 PM   #24
Hiskashrus
Diamond Member
 
Hiskashrus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,450
i didn't attempt to disprove your point, only it's notion. i have no patience to retype my post בס"א קצת .
__________________
Hiskashrus: available at a sforim shank near you
Hiskashrus is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-01-2006, 08:15 PM   #25
Torah613
ChabadTalk.com Elder!
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 11,716
My point? My notion? איך פארשטיי ניט! You don't have to retype anything, just tell me what you are disagreeing with (if anything).
Torah613 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Messiah Indifference by David Berger endee Book Reviews 413 05-09-2006 08:59 PM
Swastika in Crown Heights! shliachman Current 3 12-25-2004 11:32 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:41 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2001 - 2016 ChabadTalk.com