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Unread 08-14-2009, 12:00 AM   #1
noahidelaws
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Prayer in the Messianic Era

If tefilla comes to replace korbonos (uneshalmo forim sfoseinu), and korbonos will be reinstated when Moshiach comes, does that mean that we will no longer davven when Moshiach comes?
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Unread 08-14-2009, 09:50 AM   #2
Torah613
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In the time of Bayis Sheni there was tefilla, no?
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Unread 08-14-2009, 11:03 AM   #3
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The Mitzvah of T'fillah is medoraisah. That would not stop when Moshiach comes.
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Unread 08-14-2009, 11:13 AM   #4
Torah613
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Actually that itself is a machlokes, and SA paskens it is mederabonon.
But even according to those that hold it's medoraisah, 3 tefillos isn't. Hence Noah's question
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Unread 08-14-2009, 12:29 PM   #5
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Sorry for not clarifying--I meant the takonos derabonon of nusach hetefilla, zmanei tefilla, etc., not the etzem inyan of bakoshas tzrochov.
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Unread 08-14-2009, 01:57 PM   #6
Torah613
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And the point from Bayis Sheni doesn't shed some light?
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Unread 08-15-2009, 04:46 PM   #7
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As T613 pointed out, even with the Beis HaMikdosh HaSheni, there were Korbonos and Seder HaTfilah. And it is said that the Beis HaMikdosh HaShlishis will have all the positive aspects of the Rishon and the Sheni. So, probably the Seder HaTfilah will be practice after Moshiach's arrival. The Amidah in Moshiach's time will certainely be different. By example, it will be illogical to say "R'ei na v'anyeinu, v'riva riveinu, ugaleinu m'heirah l'maan sh'mekha", or, "T'ka b'shofar gadol l'cheiruteinu,
v'sa neis l'kabeits galuyoteinu, v'kab'tseinu yachad m'heirah meiarba kanfot haaretz l'artseinu", or "Hashiva shof'teinu k'varishonah, etc." or "V'lirushalaiyim ir'kha b'rachamim tashuv, etc.", or "Et tsemach David avd'kha m'heirah tatzmiach, etc." So you see what sections of the Seder HaTfilah I'm talking about.
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Unread 08-16-2009, 10:04 AM   #8
emes m'eretz
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I wonder if these tefilos can continue to have meaning.

Perhaps beruchnius. Perhaps as a peula nimsheches, similar to "noisein hatorah," that Hashem constantly gives us the Torah.
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Unread 08-16-2009, 10:05 AM   #9
Torah613
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Huh? Where does peula nimsheches fall into this? Clarify, please. Also explain what beruchniyus means.
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Unread 08-16-2009, 02:46 PM   #10
MahTovChelkeinu
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#1) In response to Noah's original post, I would point out that certain parts of davening are not replacements for korbanos. For example, krias shema twice daily.

#2) In response to Noah's modified post and Moshe's very interesting point, the nusach that we say today was established piecemeal over the last couple of thousand years. The mishna and gemarrah give some time to discuss specific wording, the gaonim set up the basic outline of the siddur we follow today, and Rabbonim great and small continue to publish slight changes in the nusach to this day (in perspective, the Alter Rebbe's nusach is relatively recent).

It seems to me that when Moshiach comes there will be a new Sanhedrin and that the new Sanhedrin will establish a new Nusach. OR, alternatively, we will once again be on a high enough level that a specific nusach will be unneccesary, just like before the amidah was first codified.

As to whether there will be a chiyuv to daven... I'm curious to hear what others have to say.

Last edited by MahTovChelkeinu; 08-16-2009 at 08:59 PM. Reason: Precision
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Unread 08-16-2009, 03:03 PM   #11
Torah613
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Krias Shma is not a "tfila".
The basic brochos of the amida (which is the main issue here) was set up by אנשי כנסת הגדולה. Details may have changed, but the basic structure and content is the same.
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Unread 08-16-2009, 03:28 PM   #12
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The original post was about davening b'chlal. Noah focused his statement in a later post, which is why I specified. But in recognition of the need to be precise, I have edited my previous post.

Prior to the Anshe Knesses Hagedolah, people said whatever they said (there was no need for the current structure). It seems to me that the amidah could be changed in one of three ways:
(i) Change the phrasing of some brochos from a request for Moshiach and the Beis Hamikdash, to a request that those things should be continually enhanced; for example, rather than davening that we should be returned to Yerushalayim, we would daven we remain united as one people within Yerushalayim.
(ii) Change the phrasing from a request for those brochos, to a thanks for those brochos (this would change the set-up within the Amidah where we have three brochos of thanks and then requests for new brochos afterwards).
(iii) Completely change or omit the list of requests, possibly even having a number than 18 (more or less) total brochos.

Whether you regard any of the above as an acceptable change of Nusach such as what the Alter Rebbe did or whether you regard them as requiring a Beis Din at least as great as the Anshe Knesset HaGedolah, the Sanhedrin in the times of Moshiach will fit the bill. Indeed, post-Techias HaMeisim some of the same members might even be on both
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Unread 08-16-2009, 03:42 PM   #13
Torah613
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The original post was about tfillos that correspond to korbonos - which is mainly Shmoneh Esrei. Since SE was instituted by the AKG, I made the point (in post # 2) that we see that even in the times of korbonos (in bayis sheni), SE was still said.

I fail to see why that does not answer the original question, which was not so much about the specific nusach (which may be tinkered with), but about the actual obligation of saying SE and the times to say it.

The questions of the specific nusach that will be said then, is a secondary question.

[What the AR did, was not a change in the general מטבע שטבעו חכמים. What does constitute such a change, is another - albeit related - discussion].

I have no idea what the argument here is, if any.
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Unread 08-16-2009, 04:55 PM   #14
noahidelaws
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Quote:
Change the phrasing of some brochos from a request for Moshiach and the Beis Hamikdash, to a request that those things should be continually enhanced; for example, rather than davening that we should be returned to Yerushalayim, we would daven we remain united as one people within Yerushalayim.
The Geula that will come very soon will be an eternal one, not followed by any golus and only going meichayil el choyil. Once it comes, I don't think it makes sense to request that it continue when the nevu'os say clearly that it will.
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Unread 08-16-2009, 06:09 PM   #15
mosheh5769
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noahidelaws View Post
The Geula that will come very soon will be an eternal one, not followed by any golus and only going meichayil el choyil. Once it comes, I don't think it makes sense to request that it continue when the nevu'os say clearly that it will.
Ewactly, and this is why I said that ir will be illogical to keep on Davening the SE in is actual form because Moshiach will bring eternal Geuloh, but Tfilos won't be abolished because of Moshiach's arrival (because even in the time of the Sheni, there were Korbonos and Tfilos), the structure of the Amidah will surely be the same (שבח,בקשה, הודעה) only some wordings will change to express the situation created by the Geuloh. And surely this will be one of the tasks of the Sanhedrin that will be reestablished by Moshiach.

Any way, as you all know, Eliyahu will answer all our uncertainties
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Unread 08-16-2009, 09:05 PM   #16
MahTovChelkeinu
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Quote:
The Geula that will come very soon will be an eternal one, not followed by any golus and only going meichayil el choyil. Once it comes, I don't think it makes sense to request that it continue when the nevu'os say clearly that it will.
I tend to agree with you, perhaps for a different reason. There are currently no brochos in SE that say "life is good and I would like it to stay that way." Rather, they all say "help me improve my life." Nonetheless, it is possible to daven that certain brochos come in an even greater way - we can always daven to have greater achdus within the wall of Yerushalayim.

But, I think (as you do) that our whole purpose in life will change so that some of the Brochos will be completely erased and others will be inserted instead.

But, as T613 points out, this is a secondary question to the original post as modified - will there be a chiyuv to say the davening that we currently say in the place of korbanos.
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Unread 08-16-2009, 09:26 PM   #17
emes m'eretz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torah613 View Post
Huh? Where does peula nimsheches fall into this? Clarify, please. Also explain what beruchniyus means.
Peula nimsheches: The Aibeshter constantly creates the world. He will constantly keep Yerushalayim in a state of biyan, boineh Yerushalayim.

Ruchnius: Yetzias mitzrayim is still applicable spiritually, escaping borders etc.
Similarly prayers in Shmoineh Esrei could have spiritual significance. Boneh Yerushalayim, Hashem should build the state of complete yirah.

All of the above is just a suggestion "ulai biderech efshar."
And for the purpose of possible discussion.
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Unread 08-16-2009, 09:46 PM   #18
Torah613
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In tefilla, though we find requests for spiritual things (i.e. tshuva), but the physical things that are referred to are meant in simple gashmiyus - even though they may have a spiritual meaning also. If we mention yetzias mitrayim - we mean going out of Egypt, in addition to whatever spiritiual significance it also has. So also concerning all the brochos etc.

פעולה נמשכת is a halachik (or philisophical) concept that is used in certain defined cases for specific reasons. Just to throw words around because it "sounds" nice, doesn't help me.
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Unread 08-17-2009, 08:38 AM   #19
emes m'eretz
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Perhaps one can say that in the era of the geula, spirituality will be bepashtus.

Another thought: Even nowadays, a simple brocho like "boneh yerushalayim" (he rebuilds Yerushalayim) is lechora not kipshutoi. We don't see Hashem rebuilding Yerushalayim now. Unless you go deeper, and explain that the process is happening etc.
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Unread 08-17-2009, 09:38 AM   #20
Torah613
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And מקבץ נדחי means he is gathering now...

Is that simple pshat, according to simple, basic dikduk? See metzudos on the posuk בונה ירשלים. See Psochim 117b and in Rashi, Taz Orech Chaim 66:6 (concerning Goel Yisroel). ופשוט.

Please don't confuse remez and drush with pshat.

Last edited by Torah613; 08-17-2009 at 10:40 AM.
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Unread 08-18-2009, 10:12 AM   #21
emes m'eretz
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Thank you for the sources.

It answers my question in my second point in post #19.


Lechora, since present tense can mean present or future, and the future tense can mean future or present, we can now say that expressions in the future tense (vilirushalyaim ircha birachamim toshuv) will not be a problem in the Messianic era, since it can also mean the present.

(And also with regard to the present tense (goiel Yisroel), lechora the Gemorah is not negating the 'present' meaning, which is the poshut meaning. Lechora the gemorah is saying to not use the past tense (go'al) which would exclude a 'future' meaning and a plea for rachamim. But the present tense is ok since it also allows for a 'future' meaning.)


So lechora future and present tense could theoretically fit in with the Messianic era.

But the command (2 letters, as opposed to a command with 3 letters which is also future tense) may be a problem. (veso neis).
Unless we use my suggestions in post #17 as a possible answer.
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