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Unread 11-12-2008, 11:46 PM   #1
memyselfandi
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Moshiach ben dovid and moshiach ben yosef

Why are Moshiach Ben Yosef and Moshiach Ben Dovid the same person? I never quite understood this concept...
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Unread 11-13-2008, 03:12 AM   #2
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They aren't, unless you learn Chassidus. And unfortunately, because it's a concept that I have trouble digesting (along with the concept of Ahavat Chassidim vs. Ahavat Yisrael), I don't feel that I can explain it without being cynical.
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Unread 11-13-2008, 10:44 AM   #3
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They aren't, unless you learn Chassidus. And unfortunately, because it's a concept that I have trouble digesting (along with the concept of Ahavat Chassidim vs. Ahavat Yisrael), I don't feel that I can explain it without being cynical.
Is there difference between loving your siblings and loving your classmates?
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Unread 11-13-2008, 10:46 AM   #4
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Yes.
I've been through this. It won't be resolved till Moshiach comes.
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Unread 11-13-2008, 01:15 PM   #5
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Why are Moshiach Ben Yosef and Moshiach Ben Dovid the same person?

Who says they are? Can you provide source(s)? By definition they are not!
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Unread 11-13-2008, 09:02 PM   #6
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Why are Moshiach Ben Yosef and Moshiach Ben Dovid the same person?

Who says they are? Can you provide source(s)? By definition they are not!
I got this website from askmoses.com:
http://www.moshiachfacts.com/index.php?page=qaforum&chapter=3&section=3
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Unread 11-13-2008, 10:00 PM   #7
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I got this website from askmoses.com:
http://www.moshiachfacts.com

1. I checked that website and it is an old "meshichist" website pushing their notorious ideology. That itself should make whatever they say suspect.

2. In the page you cited, they suggest that MbY and MbD are one person and offer 2 sources for it: Sefer Hachizyonos p. 106 and the Zohar. With the help of a good and scholarly friend I checked it out. Leaving aside the controversy re Sefer Hach., I could not find there any such statement at all! In fact, in that work p. 5, it is made quite clear that they are 2 distinct individuals.
As for the Zohar (3:203b) - same thing, sheer invention and distortion (more likely simply ignorant thus false reading). It makes it very clear there that they are 2 distinct persons, with MbY coming first and being killed (as is mentioned in all other classical sources, see Sukah 52a) and then later, after coming of MbD (and on account of MbD's prayer!) being resurrected.

In plain English, that assumption is sheer ignorance and nonsense.
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Unread 11-13-2008, 10:55 PM   #8
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They aren't, unless you learn Chassidus.
So, it's a concept in chassidus and not "sheer ignorance and nonsense"?
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Unread 11-13-2008, 11:09 PM   #9
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Where in "Chassidus"? A maamor? Sicha?
R' Wolpoe in his magnum opus יחי המלך המשיח (printed in 5752) says this chiddush - that they are one, and wants to say that they are different stages in Moshiach. His sources are pretty flimsy, though he tries to insert it into some statements of the Rebbe. Of course, he says that what he says is על פי פנימיות הענינים, but the dearth of solid sources in Chassidus means that it is what he calls "pnimiyus hoinyanim", not real classical Chassidus.
Therefore, to say that if ones learns Chassidus, one "knows" they are one and the same, needs basis...

Last edited by Torah613; 11-14-2008 at 09:27 AM.
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Unread 11-14-2008, 08:20 AM   #10
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I believe the two are one. Yet, just because I believe it...doesn't make it so. Certainly I could be wrong. I've always sensed that the following verses might provide a clue.


[15] The word of the L-RD came again unto me, saying,
[16] Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
[17] And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
[18] And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
[19] Say unto them, Thus saith the L-rd G-D; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
[20] And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
[21] And say unto them, Thus saith the L-rd G-D; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
[22] And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
[23] Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their G-d.
[24] And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
[25] And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children’s children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
[26] Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
[27] My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their G-d, and they shall be my people.
[28] And the heathen shall know that I the L-RD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore
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Unread 11-14-2008, 10:03 AM   #11
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" I've always sensed that the following verses might provide a clue. "

Please re-read your psukim. Your original assumption is a reading along the lines of missionaries of taking things out of context. The argument that MbY and MbD are one and the same is simply megaleh ponim baTorah shelo kehalochoh. There is no such suggestion anywhere, including Chassidus, and this is another invention of the meshichistim to support their notorious agenda. Wolpe is hardly an authority, and for all those who would make that suggestion it is "put up (provide explicit sources, as opposed to "I have secret sources" or "hamaskil yovin" etc.) or shut up."
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Unread 11-14-2008, 01:29 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachelle View Post
" I've always sensed that the following verses might provide a clue. "

Please re-read your psukim. Your original assumption is a reading along the lines of missionaries of taking things out of context. The argument that MbY and MbD are one and the same is simply megaleh ponim baTorah shelo kehalochoh. There is no such suggestion anywhere, including Chassidus, and this is another invention of the meshichistim to support their notorious agenda. Wolpe is hardly an authority, and for all those who would make that suggestion it is "put up (provide explicit sources, as opposed to "I have secret sources" or "hamaskil yovin" etc.) or shut up."
Hello Rachelle
As I said, I could certainly be wrong. As for as sources, Maimonides tells us that many things surrounding the person of Moshiach is much of a mystery until he actually comes. I admire your steadfast approach and the absolute need for sources. I'm sorry if I upset you, really. Listen, I've been wrong about most things in life. If I error in the secular world where things are made by imperfect hands, how could I ever be right with things from hashamayim, that which is clean, holy, and perfect?

Sukah 52a-b; Zohar I:25b; ibid. III:246b and 252b etc.; and Midrash Agadat Mashiach ; use the term Mashiach ben Yossef. Targum Yehonathan on Exodus 40:11; Zohar II:120a; ibid. 153b, 194b, and 243b etc.; Midrash Tehilim 60:3; and other Midrashim refer to Mashiach ben Ephrayim. Pesikta Rabaty , ch. 36-37 (ed. Friedmann, ch. 35-36) refers to Ephrayim Meshiach Tzidki (Ephraim, My righteous Mashiach); the term Ephraim, though, may relate here to collective Israel, thus referring to Mashiach ben David.Pirkei Heichalot Rabaty , ch. 39 (Batei Midrashot , ed. Wertheimer, vol. I) and Sefer Zerubavel (ibid., vol. II), offer his personal name as Nechemiah ben Chushiel (likewise in Midrash Tehilim 60:3), adding “who is of Ephraim the son of Joseph.” (Interestingly enough, Pirkei deR. Eliezer , ch. 19, calls him Menachem ben Ammi’el, the very name the other sources and Zohar III:173b attribute to Mashiach ben David.)

Be well,
Walter
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Unread 11-14-2008, 02:59 PM   #13
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Next time you cite something please have the courtesy to also cite your source. Your erudite comment with all those references is taken verbatim from Rabbi Immanuel Shochet's book "Mashiach" Appendix II. Moreover, without quoting these footnotes in context no one will understand what you are trying to say with it.
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Unread 11-14-2008, 04:23 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachelle View Post
Next time you cite something please have the courtesy to also cite your source. Your erudite comment with all those references is taken verbatim from Rabbi Immanuel Shochet's book "Mashiach" Appendix II. Moreover, without quoting these footnotes in context no one will understand what you are trying to say with it.
"the term Ephraim, though, may relate here to collective Israel, thus referring to Mashiach ben David."

The context is, "Is Moshiach Ben Yosef and Moshiach Ben David the same person"... right? Epriam=Yosef, right? All I'm saying is... this is not necessarily
a x-tian theology. What is the definition of "erudite?"
Toda



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Unread 02-18-2009, 11:49 AM   #15
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I don't get it, why would the meshichistim want to prove that mbY and mbD are the same person? what difference does it make?
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Unread 02-18-2009, 12:09 PM   #16
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The Rebbe is not MBD as MBY did not arrive.

As T613 makes clear this is all imaginations in Wolpos book that the Rebbe did not want printed and that those looking to mock us quote though it is not from Kehos
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Unread 02-18-2009, 01:37 PM   #17
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oy...but acctually, they could just say that the friedike Rebbe was
MBY i think i actually might have heard that theory before
anyway, who knows...we'll see when he comes...and dont even talk to me about how we should bring him !!!...
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Unread 02-18-2009, 08:46 PM   #18
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Yeah, I think (IIRC) that the theory you mention is in the aforementioned Wolpoe book. Just because someone made up a theory - so what?

Last edited by Torah613; 02-19-2009 at 10:27 AM.
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Unread 02-19-2009, 08:34 AM   #19
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So nu...wait was R' Kook MBY? I think I'll ask about that one.
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Unread 02-19-2009, 09:48 AM   #20
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i guess the answer you'll get will depend on who you ask..
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Unread 02-19-2009, 10:04 AM   #21
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Nah, I don't think he's MBY, nor does anyone else. It was...a joke.
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Unread 02-19-2009, 12:49 PM   #22
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Nah, I don't think he's MBY, nor does anyone else. It was...a joke.
no kidding...lol
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Unread 02-19-2009, 01:37 PM   #23
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LOL. As long as you got that....
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Unread 11-27-2011, 08:27 PM   #24
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My research indicates there are two complimentary messiahs. David is greater than Joseph, the latter of whom is similar to a viceroy. Such is the ancient meaning of "anti-", as in anti-messiah. Joseph prepares the way for David's reign and then evidently departs as a loyal subordinate.
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Unread 03-12-2012, 06:42 AM   #25
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Jacob had twelve sons. This signifie the offices of Moshiach : not only of Judea , Joseph , Levi ,Menasse and Benjamin. But this doesn't mean Moshiach will hold one office only ,he may hold two , three and more offices even include Elijah's office , the task belong to Elijah.
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