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Unread 09-19-2010, 11:31 AM   #26
FlyingAxe
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Originally Posted by ktonton View Post
If only we could outlaw centralized meat production and bring it all back under the hands of local rabbanim as is outlined in shulchan aruch.
It would probably drive the price of meat up, considering the large demand by Jewish populations in NYC and other large cities, and make kosher meat much less accessible. As a result, many "borderline-frum" Jews who eat kosher meat only because it's affordable would start eating mamosh treif meat. Also, a bunch of competing factories/butcheries/restaurants would spring up that would not be under supervision of those rabbonim who would obey such a ban, and would produce kosher meat with much less supervision. The most frum people probably wouldn't eat from them, but less frum might...

So, a result of such a ban would be most Jews doing the same thing they are doing now (eating mass-shechted meat), only with lower degree of kashrus.

Instead of banning stuff, propose a successful competition — a way for local butchers to be competitive with centralized factories. Also, nobody forbids local butchers (catering to frum Jews who are afraid of factory-produced meat) to exist. If there really was a large demand for such service, they would exist already. Nothing prevents the frum Jews who don't trust factories from hiring private butchers serving their communities, offering them higher salaries.
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Unread 09-19-2010, 11:46 AM   #27
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I know it's unrelated, but in Brookline, MA, there is a kosher butchery (called "Butchery") selling packaged meat (with OU and other hechsheirim) and its own meat, locally shechted. Until recently, it was the only source of kosher meat. The problem is: the meat was not glatt kosher. Recently (last few years), glatt kosher meat started appearing in local super-markets, and very recently (last couple months or so), another butchery offering glatt kosher meat opened in Brookline. Guess what? The Butchery (the first one) announced it is going to switch to offering only glatt kosher meat.

My point? Yay for capitalism and competition.
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Unread 09-20-2010, 05:51 AM   #28
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first you should know that most meat here is not "glatte" kosher. Infact, likely almost none of the meat that you eat is "glatte" kosher, rather at present we use the word "glatte" to mean meat shecheted by "our people" (presumably of a higher standard of kasherus, whatever that means in this context.) Perhaps it means shechted by someone with a beard.

if you want the proof, check out your local chickens, they say "glatte" despite the fact that the very concept is not shaiyach at all to them.

so no, whether or not it says glatte, what you are eating is not, infact, glatte, and likely traif anyway. (put it this way, in most factories today, only 1 out of every ten animals is "glatte". If you couldn't sell anything else, noone could actually stay in business.)

Second, bear in mind that the reason why local butcheries went out of business is because of legal problems and pressures. There are so many restrictions on meat production that it is impossible to produce properly kosher meat on a small scale and make a profit. (R"L.)

hence the centralization.

and your prospective on local butcheries is not actualy true, once you outlaw centralized shechita (not ban, outlaw, ie declare it illegal for a kosher slaugter house to ship its meat outside of a certain local juristiction) then the kosher butchers will be forced to turn to localy run rabbanim for hashgacha, hence returning the "capatalist" element to shechita as well as ensuring that the slaughter houses are not large enough to push the rabbanim around.
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Unread 09-20-2010, 07:24 AM   #29
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The problem, as always, is not capitalism, but the government. And the solution is not more government, but less government.
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Unread 09-20-2010, 07:53 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by ktonton View Post
so no, whether or not it says glatte, what you are eating is not, infact, glatte, and likely traif anyway.
I find this statement totally out of line, and loshon horo of the first order.
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Unread 09-21-2010, 07:22 PM   #31
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ktonton
are you vegeterian?
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Unread 01-28-2011, 12:30 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by ktonton View Post
first you should know that most meat here is not "glatte" kosher. Infact, likely almost none of the meat that you eat is "glatte" kosher, rather at present we use the word "glatte" to mean meat shecheted by "our people" (presumably of a higher standard of kasherus, whatever that means in this context.) Perhaps it means shechted by someone with a beard.

if you want the proof, check out your local chickens, they say "glatte" despite the fact that the very concept is not shaiyach at all to them.

so no, whether or not it says glatte, what you are eating is not, infact, glatte, and likely traif anyway. (put it this way, in most factories today, only 1 out of every ten animals is "glatte". If you couldn't sell anything else, noone could actually stay in business.)

Second, bear in mind that the reason why local butcheries went out of business is because of legal problems and pressures. There are so many restrictions on meat production that it is impossible to produce properly kosher meat on a small scale and make a profit. (R"L.)

hence the centralization.

and your prospective on local butcheries is not actualy true, once you outlaw centralized shechita (not ban, outlaw, ie declare it illegal for a kosher slaugter house to ship its meat outside of a certain local juristiction) then the kosher butchers will be forced to turn to localy run rabbanim for hashgacha, hence returning the "capatalist" element to shechita as well as ensuring that the slaughter houses are not large enough to push the rabbanim around.
Usually I refrain from getting into arguments online, however here I will make an exception.

As someone who worked on the killing floor of a slaughterhouse, observered shechita, bedikah, as well as personally oversaw and managed the melicha process and nikur of the liver, I find your entire statement misinformed, inaccurate, and slightly ignorant.

1) First you should know that most meat is Glatt and that the term "Glatt" is a very broad term that can mean one of many things. If you phrased your statement as "most meat here is not the "highest" standard of glatt, then I would then agree with you. Beis Yosef standards are much higher than Rama and despite people here disagreeing, I believe it has to do with the weather conditions both Rabbis lived in and how Europe's weather meant animals with a general lower quality of health. The difference between the two is not leaps and bounds and no one is labeling "Glatt Kosher" a behamah with holes and lesions in its lungs. A small overlapping part of the lung stuck will result in it being labeled as a lower level of glatt but still considered glatt by all Ashkenazi and Chassidic standards. Im not here to get into a halachic discourse, but observing lungs and what they show makes it "beit yosef, chalak, and treif" is hard to tell but once show it is obvious.

2) I do not see how labeling something slightly inaccurately, ieglatt kosher chicken and fish) is a proof that beef slaughterhouses label non glatt meat Glatt. Please explain

3) Traif?!?! How did we get from non glatt to treif? This is a very dangerous statement which might reflect your general post which is full of holes (unlike the lungs i observed)

4) 1 out of 10 animals is "glatte". This is completely and utterly FALSE. Not only is it false but these words could C"V lead a Jew to just go eat treif meat because the kosher is treif anyway. In the slaughterhouse I worked for that was run by Lubavitcher Chassidim, FIVE out of 10 animals were glatte kosher. The animals were of extremely high quality and health which resulted in meat going for 11.99LB. In a slaughterhouse with less healthy/cheap cattle, you can expect between 3 and 4 out of 10.


5). Shechita is centralized because it is a dirty, difficult, dangerous and possibly disgusting process. Why is a slaughter house on one side of the US flying 5 shochtim from the opposite side of the country everything week the shecht for 2 days? Have you ever seen the process of slaughtering and kashering meat?

---------------

Lets break it down and find me 5 communities up for the task.

1) purchase a cow (or maybe 10 cows because you are providing for a community) Cattle are sold like the stock market/auction so make sure to wake up early and get to the farm to place your bids and be prepared to fight for those cattle).

2) now that you have acquired your 1 to 10 cattle, you must transport them to your community or location where you will begin the process.

3) now that you have USDA certification on your building you will wait for the USDA to check the equipment. Then you will wait for the Mashgichim to also check the equipement.

4) This begins the fun part. Somehow you need to keep a 650lb animal secure so you can shecht it properly. This usually involves a box with a hole for its head that uses a machine to pin up and reveal a straight neck. Shect behamah.

5) Now you need to let it sit there for a second because by goyim ie(USDA) if its moving its still considered alive and if you start to cut it up they will shut you down.

6) Now that its dead by all standards you have to skin it. The machine used where I work most likely cost $50,000 not to mention maintenance. It removed the skin in one fell swoop. Good luck removing the skin with a set of knives as you want to sell the hides to offset the cost of the process.

7) Next you removed the organ sack and have the shochet do bedikah on the lungs. If its Kosher its good to go, if its not kosher you will sell it to a non kosher producer. Since you arent at the same location as non kosher meat this will be expensive to transport and possibly not worth the effort.

8) the lungs are removed and checked a second time outside of the animal and then confirmed to its level of Glatt.

9) cut in half and sell the back 1/2 to a treif meat place with the other non kosher.

10) let it sit for 48hrs via USDA law which only gives you 24hrs to do melicha.

11) 48hrs later you need to do the nikur removing veins and fats while still leaving enough meat to make it worth it.

12) do the melicha process soak/salt/rinse. On the height of my job I spent 12hrs kashering 30,000lb of meat

13) cut it up into the size of meat you see in the store and start selling. At least you save on the packaging process as those little plastic air tight containers aint cheap.

14) enjoy some meat l'kavod shabbos.

This is why shechita is centralized. To solve the problem we dont need 1 plant for the whole country OR every community with a butcher.

You need 2 plants on the west coast and 5 plants on the east coast. providing to a certain area and everyone wins.

That isnt very capitalist though.

Ive said my .02 cents.
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Unread 01-29-2011, 11:38 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by FlyingAxe View Post
I know it's unrelated, but in Brookline, MA, there is a kosher butchery (called "Butchery") selling packaged meat (with OU and other hechsheirim) and its own meat, locally shechted. Until recently, it was the only source of kosher meat. The problem is: the meat was not glatt kosher. Recently (last few years), glatt kosher meat started appearing in local super-markets, and very recently (last couple months or so), another butchery offering glatt kosher meat opened in Brookline. Guess what? The Butchery (the first one) announced it is going to switch to offering only glatt kosher meat.

My point? Yay for capitalism and competition.

Uh... what shlachthouse operates locally in the Brookline area?
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Unread 01-30-2011, 09:33 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Lamp Lighter View Post
1) First you should know that most meat is Glatt and that the term "Glatt" is a very broad term that can mean one of many things. If you phrased your statement as "most meat here is not the "highest" standard of glatt, then I would then agree with you. Beis Yosef standards are much higher than Rama
then what does the remo hold is non-glatte but still kosher? most older books which I have learned have stated explicitly that when they say "glatte" they mean without peelable adhesions. ie beis yosef. asserting that the remo states that this is also "glatte" is to ignore the fact that the entire difference between glatte and non-glatte concerns the presence of such adhesions.

Quote:
and despite people here disagreeing, I believe it has to do with the weather conditions both Rabbis lived in and how Europe's weather meant animals with a general lower quality of health. The difference between the two is not leaps and bounds and no one is labeling "Glatt Kosher" a behamah with holes and lesions in its lungs.
I didn't say i was. I am objecting to the rewriting of halachic terminology to extend the word "glatte" to mean anything other than it actualy means, ie beis yosef standard meat. (with regards to the adhesions which are peelable.)

Quote:
A small overlapping part of the lung stuck will result in it being labeled as a lower level of glatt but still considered glatt by all Ashkenazi and Chassidic standards. Im not here to get into a halachic discourse, but observing lungs and what they show makes it "beit yosef, chalak, and treif" is hard to tell but once show it is obvious.

2) I do not see how labeling something slightly inaccurately, ieglatt kosher chicken and fish) is a proof that beef slaughterhouses label non glatt meat Glatt. Please explain
answer me, why is it irrelevant to lable chicken (or veal) as glatte? because the hetter regarding these peelings isn't acceptable to them.

Quote:
3) Traif?!?! How did we get from non glatt to treif? This is a very dangerous statement which might reflect your general post which is full of holes (unlike the lungs i observed)
I know quite a few shochtim now who bchlal do not eat meat because they have seen what goes on in kosher slaughter houses and have pointed out other problems in the shechting process itself, such as inadequate inspection of the knives.

Quote:
4) 1 out of 10 animals is "glatte". This is completely and utterly FALSE. Not only is it false but these words could C"V lead a Jew to just go eat treif meat because the kosher is treif anyway. In the slaughterhouse I worked for that was run by Lubavitcher Chassidim, FIVE out of 10 animals were glatte kosher. The animals were of extremely high quality and health which resulted in meat going for 11.99LB. In a slaughterhouse with less healthy/cheap cattle, you can expect between 3 and 4 out of 10.
one out of ten is glatte, the other 5 or 6 are usualy kosher but non-glatte, what you claimed was "remo glatte", ie non-glatte but still 100% kosher for ashkenazim.


Quote:
5). Shechita is centralized because it is a dirty, difficult, dangerous and possibly disgusting process. Why is a slaughter house on one side of the US flying 5 shochtim from the opposite side of the country everything week the shecht for 2 days? Have you ever seen the process of slaughtering and kashering meat?

---------------

Lets break it down and find me 5 communities up for the task.

1) purchase a cow (or maybe 10 cows because you are providing for a community) Cattle are sold like the stock market/auction so make sure to wake up early and get to the farm to place your bids and be prepared to fight for those cattle).

2) now that you have acquired your 1 to 10 cattle, you must transport them to your community or location where you will begin the process.

3) now that you have USDA certification on your building you will wait for the USDA to check the equipment. Then you will wait for the Mashgichim to also check the equipement.

4) This begins the fun part. Somehow you need to keep a 650lb animal secure so you can shecht it properly. This usually involves a box with a hole for its head that uses a machine to pin up and reveal a straight neck. Shect behamah.

5) Now you need to let it sit there for a second because by goyim ie(USDA) if its moving its still considered alive and if you start to cut it up they will shut you down.

6) Now that its dead by all standards you have to skin it. The machine used where I work most likely cost $50,000 not to mention maintenance. It removed the skin in one fell swoop. Good luck removing the skin with a set of knives as you want to sell the hides to offset the cost of the process.

7) Next you removed the organ sack and have the shochet do bedikah on the lungs. If its Kosher its good to go, if its not kosher you will sell it to a non kosher producer. Since you arent at the same location as non kosher meat this will be expensive to transport and possibly not worth the effort.

8) the lungs are removed and checked a second time outside of the animal and then confirmed to its level of Glatt.

9) cut in half and sell the back 1/2 to a treif meat place with the other non kosher.

10) let it sit for 48hrs via USDA law which only gives you 24hrs to do melicha.

11) 48hrs later you need to do the nikur removing veins and fats while still leaving enough meat to make it worth it.

12) do the melicha process soak/salt/rinse. On the height of my job I spent 12hrs kashering 30,000lb of meat

13) cut it up into the size of meat you see in the store and start selling. At least you save on the packaging process as those little plastic air tight containers aint cheap.

14) enjoy some meat l'kavod shabbos.

This is why shechita is centralized. To solve the problem we dont need 1 plant for the whole country OR every community with a butcher.

You need 2 plants on the west coast and 5 plants on the east coast. providing to a certain area and everyone wins.

That isnt very capitalist though.

Ive said my .02 cents.
none of this is new.
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Unread 01-30-2011, 01:39 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by ktonton View Post

1) then what does the remo hold is non-glatte but still kosher? most older books which I have learned have stated explicitly that when they say "glatte" they mean without peelable adhesions. ie beis yosef. asserting that the remo states that this is also "glatte" is to ignore the fact that the entire difference between glatte and non-glatte concerns the presence of such adhesions.

2) I didn't say i was. I am objecting to the rewriting of halachic terminology to extend the word "glatte" to mean anything other than it actualy means, ie beis yosef standard meat. (with regards to the adhesions which are peelable.)

3) answer me, why is it irrelevant to lable chicken (or veal) as glatte? because the hetter regarding these peelings isn't acceptable to them.


4) I know quite a few shochtim now who bchlal do not eat meat because they have seen what goes on in kosher slaughter houses and have pointed out other problems in the shechting process itself, such as inadequate inspection of the knives.

5) one out of ten is glatte, the other 5 or 6 are usualy kosher but non-glatte, what you claimed was "remo glatte", ie non-glatte but still 100% kosher for ashkenazim.



6) none of this is new.
Since most people dont have time to invest learning the halachos inside on this topic I found a very basic and informative source online.

http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-beef-glatt.htm

I am still waiting for your sources via online information or a sefer etc.

1) If I am wrong people someone correct me. The difference between beit yosef and rama in regards to glatt is that the B.Y. says that if there is a peelable adhesion then it isnt glatt. the Rema allows for you to peel it and check and if it is ok then it is still Glatt. The lungs are removed from the animal and rechecked and blown up once the adhesion is removed. if they are no holes it is glatt. the ones that had no adhesion issues in the first place are labeled beit yosef and the ones with adhesions removed are labled chalak. If this is wrong then I apologize and await to the correct information as to not spread false information. So the fact that Ashkenaz in the past ate non glatt meat is not relavent to our discussion. What is Glatt isnt a cut dry 1 line answer.

2) I dont believe there is a conspiracy to rewrite halachah. I believe that glatte is now being used to market a "high standard" just like labeling something "kosher" began in the early 1930's possibly (i have no source for this but am curious to find information of the history of hekshurs and how they came about to what the industry is today)

3) I believe that 2) answers 3) and my opinion seems to be validated by the head of the Star-K.

4) I know quite a few different people that do quite a few different things, but that doesnt mean much as we could always play the game, I know more shoctim than you do and since I worked in the industry I might have some footing here.

5) I respectfully disagree with your comment and would appreciate sources, as I respectfully believe you have little to no idea what you are talking about.

6) I dont believe anything I have wrote is a chiddush. I am simply trying to battle what has becoming a growing phenomenon in the world of spreading sheker about kosher meat standards and practice. My point was simply stating the reason why each community doesnt have their own local process like in europe because there are few willing to take up the task. The Kosher industry is FAR from perfect ESPECIALLY the meat industry but I do not believe that falsifying glatte is one of them. I watched the shochtim check their knifes, I watched them check the lungs I watched them label shilahs and then recheck and labeling many non kosher or chalack but never B.Y. I watch a lot of things that contradict what you say.

There doesnt seem to be much to discuss anymore as we both have stated are claim. I am not here to convince you to abandon your opinion and come over to my side as my point here is to dubunk your information for others that might read it. All that is left is for you to provide sources to back your claims. The burden of proof lies on you.

If you chose not to back sources and instead consider your words on chabadtalk as a psak on what is glatt than that is fine. If you are doing it for the sake of Heaven and Torah and for completely pure motives then the Emes will come out.

Gut Voch.
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Unread 01-30-2011, 03:09 PM   #36
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Given the tzaros that our community has just to be able to do kapparos once a year (and cost of the chickens for that project), I have to say that the argument that it is not practical for evey community to have a shochet is rather convincing to me.

Lamplighter, I have spent some time learning the halachos related to the shchita process, but none learning about USDA regulations or the business of buying live animals. Your description of the "start to finish" was very interesting and I thank you for taking the time to write it.

I am also very curious, even without the USDA, exactly how common it was for communities to be able to eat beef prior to the industrial revolution. It seems to me that these issues, even without the health laws, would have been prohibitive in large sections of Eastern Europe back in the day.
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Unread 02-01-2011, 09:59 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lamp Lighter View Post
Since most people dont have time to invest learning the halachos inside on this topic I found a very basic and informative source online.

http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-beef-glatt.htm

I am still waiting for your sources via online information or a sefer etc.

1) If I am wrong people someone correct me. The difference between beit yosef and rama in regards to glatt is that the B.Y. says that if there is a peelable adhesion then it isnt glatt. the Rema allows for you to peel it and check and if it is ok then it is still Glatt. The lungs are removed from the animal and rechecked and blown up once the adhesion is removed. if they are no holes it is glatt. the ones that had no adhesion issues in the first place are labeled beit yosef and the ones with adhesions removed are labled chalak. If this is wrong then I apologize and await to the correct information as to not spread false information. So the fact that Ashkenaz in the past ate non glatt meat is not relavent to our discussion. What is Glatt isnt a cut dry 1 line answer.

2) I dont believe there is a conspiracy to rewrite halachah. I believe that glatte is now being used to market a "high standard" just like labeling something "kosher" began in the early 1930's possibly (i have no source for this but am curious to find information of the history of hekshurs and how they came about to what the industry is today)

3) I believe that 2) answers 3) and my opinion seems to be validated by the head of the Star-K.

4) I know quite a few different people that do quite a few different things, but that doesnt mean much as we could always play the game, I know more shoctim than you do and since I worked in the industry I might have some footing here.

5) I respectfully disagree with your comment and would appreciate sources, as I respectfully believe you have little to no idea what you are talking about.

6) I dont believe anything I have wrote is a chiddush. I am simply trying to battle what has becoming a growing phenomenon in the world of spreading sheker about kosher meat standards and practice. My point was simply stating the reason why each community doesnt have their own local process like in europe because there are few willing to take up the task. The Kosher industry is FAR from perfect ESPECIALLY the meat industry but I do not believe that falsifying glatte is one of them. I watched the shochtim check their knifes, I watched them check the lungs I watched them label shilahs and then recheck and labeling many non kosher or chalack but never B.Y. I watch a lot of things that contradict what you say.

There doesnt seem to be much to discuss anymore as we both have stated are claim. I am not here to convince you to abandon your opinion and come over to my side as my point here is to dubunk your information for others that might read it. All that is left is for you to provide sources to back your claims. The burden of proof lies on you.

If you chose not to back sources and instead consider your words on chabadtalk as a psak on what is glatt than that is fine. If you are doing it for the sake of Heaven and Torah and for completely pure motives then the Emes will come out.

Gut Voch.
my usualy slightly sarcastic response to people who respond in disbelief to what I said is to quote the midrash about moshiach explaining to us why shechita of the shor habor by the livyasan is kosher...

The problem exists. and MTC back in the day every community had a shochet, but lav davka was anyone rich enough to ask him to slaughter a cow for them (though disposal of the back half of the animal was very easy then). Most people brought him a chicken and then took it home and did a basic examination and if they were not sure, took it to the rav who examined it. Remember that all kashering was usualy done by the wives.

the shochet was paid regardless. as for the situation as of current, its genesis lies in a statement by the satmar rav that "in order to correct the problem with the shochtim's unions, we should only eat glatte". as a result of this statement, they started to take the remo's words litteraly (he says that if its pealable then we can still consider it glatte) instead of according to accepted usage (ie that its non-glatte) as his request simply wasn't possible, and was quite out of touch with reality. shochtim now have beards, but other than that, problems in kasherus constinued unabated.

The issue is with industrialization. I just oppose people pretending that there aren't any problems, at worst the average consumer is just in a possition of ones, if not entirely exempt from wrongdoing, but truth is i really don't have a solution to the problem. i just feel that if we cover it up, and pretend that its not such a big problem (its a huge one) then the people who might come up with the ideas of galvanize the community and the country to amend the laws responsible for favoring large centralized plants instead of local startups.

(a major part of the problem, after rubashkin's closed I was loosely and peripherally involved with a plan to start up a new kosher slaughter house, and (the rav) found that the laws are prohibitive. Even though most towns used to have slaughter houses, now few do, even non-kosher. Everything is becoming more centralized, and the USDA regulations can in part be blamed for this.)
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Unread 02-02-2011, 12:11 AM   #38
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my usualy slightly sarcastic response to people who respond in disbelief to what I said is to quote the midrash about moshiach explaining to us why shechita of the shor habor by the livyasan is kosher...

The problem exists. and MTC back in the day every community had a shochet, but lav davka was anyone rich enough to ask him to slaughter a cow for them (though disposal of the back half of the animal was very easy then). Most people brought him a chicken and then took it home and did a basic examination and if they were not sure, took it to the rav who examined it. Remember that all kashering was usualy done by the wives.

the shochet was paid regardless. as for the situation as of current, its genesis lies in a statement by the satmar rav that "in order to correct the problem with the shochtim's unions, we should only eat glatte". as a result of this statement, they started to take the remo's words litteraly (he says that if its pealable then we can still consider it glatte) instead of according to accepted usage (ie that its non-glatte) as his request simply wasn't possible, and was quite out of touch with reality. shochtim now have beards, but other than that, problems in kasherus constinued unabated.

The issue is with industrialization. I just oppose people pretending that there aren't any problems, at worst the average consumer is just in a possition of ones, if not entirely exempt from wrongdoing, but truth is i really don't have a solution to the problem. i just feel that if we cover it up, and pretend that its not such a big problem (its a huge one) then the people who might come up with the ideas of galvanize the community and the country to amend the laws responsible for favoring large centralized plants instead of local startups.

(a major part of the problem, after rubashkin's closed I was loosely and peripherally involved with a plan to start up a new kosher slaughter house, and (the rav) found that the laws are prohibitive. Even though most towns used to have slaughter houses, now few do, even non-kosher. Everything is becoming more centralized, and the USDA regulations can in part be blamed for this.)
So everyone is clear, I never once claimed that the Kosher Meat Industry is perfect or even above average. There is a fine line between reality which isnt perfect and a claim that 80%+ of the meat Jews eat is treif.

I would just like to point out to anyone reading this that

a) ktonton did not provide sources for his claims.

b) ktonton must either be a vegetarian or have a personal shochet, OR is eating treif with the rest of us.

As for ktonton quoting of the Satmar Rebbe of K.Y., it should be noted that

a) ktonton got his information from V.I.N. and its accuracy and context are disputed.

b) if he actually were present when the S.R. of K.Y. spoke, then he would know that the S.R. of K.Y. wasnt making a psak for klal yisroel but for his own chassidim privately which was "leaked" to make for an exciting article on V.I.N.

At least you arent critcizing Lubavitch. Instead you are saying that all of Ashkenaz Jewry is eating treif meat MAMASH.

Would you mind posting up your full name, address, email, and phone number as well as a photograph to attach to this claim?

Or is anonymous chabadtalk online as far as you go?
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Unread 02-03-2011, 07:32 AM   #39
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So everyone is clear, I never once claimed that the Kosher Meat Industry is perfect or even above average. There is a fine line between reality which isnt perfect and a claim that 80%+ of the meat Jews eat is treif.

I would just like to point out to anyone reading this that

a) ktonton did not provide sources for his claims.

b) ktonton must either be a vegetarian or have a personal shochet, OR is eating treif with the rest of us.

As for ktonton quoting of the Satmar Rebbe of K.Y., it should be noted that

a) ktonton got his information from V.I.N. and its accuracy and context are disputed.

b) if he actually were present when the S.R. of K.Y. spoke, then he would know that the S.R. of K.Y. wasnt making a psak for klal yisroel but for his own chassidim privately which was "leaked" to make for an exciting article on V.I.N.

At least you arent critcizing Lubavitch. Instead you are saying that all of Ashkenaz Jewry is eating treif meat MAMASH.

Would you mind posting up your full name, address, email, and phone number as well as a photograph to attach to this claim?

Or is anonymous chabadtalk online as far as you go?
as for the statement about none of our meat being glatte, I first read the statements in books printed in the 50s. I have also seen the statement, reresearch and reconfirmed, in books printed in the 80s, since noone I have heard from has even heard of these books, I will refrain from citing them, however as to this point, even artscroll agrees, see their piskei halacha series, hilchos kasherus, chapter 1 note 42 on page 38 2nd ed, 9th impression, printed 2004.

further as regards the VIN article, I didn't know that it existed, and have never read it or heard of it, I tend to try to stay far away from that site.

as for your claim as to the history of the satmar rav's statement, go read the book "the history of the jewish people, volume 4, jews in america" published by I think berman press, or the hebrew publishing company a good 30 years ago, it mentions that his statement was one of many rabbanim's words intended to combat shochtim's unions at the time.

as for the statement with regards to the shechita its self, as I am not at all boki in these halachot, and have not personally seen whats going on with the shechita its self, but rather repeading what I have heard from many shochtim (both in israel and america) who are quite disturbed at the situation, I do not accustome myself with this as mammosh traif, because i'm not comfortable insinuating that others should be doing likewise. Other than when I tried to do so, I aslo became anemic (health problems). if it's kosher bidiavad I don't know, but I will tell you that we have serious problems.
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Unread 02-03-2011, 10:03 AM   #40
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1) It seems to me that ktonton and LL are rererring to 2 different Satmar Rebbes...
2) Ktonton - why not tell us the names of the books you read? Even if we never heard of them (which seems to me a lame excuse for not quoting something), once we have the names, maybe someone will look for themselves etc.
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Unread 02-03-2011, 12:05 PM   #41
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as for the statement about none of our meat being glatte, I first read the statements in books printed in the 50s. I have also seen the statement, reresearch and reconfirmed, in books printed in the 80s, since noone I have heard from has even heard of these books, I will refrain from citing them, however as to this point, even artscroll agrees, see their piskei halacha series, hilchos kasherus, chapter 1 note 42 on page 38 2nd ed, 9th impression, printed 2004.

further as regards the VIN article, I didn't know that it existed, and have never read it or heard of it, I tend to try to stay far away from that site.

as for your claim as to the history of the satmar rav's statement, go read the book "the history of the jewish people, volume 4, jews in america" published by I think berman press, or the hebrew publishing company a good 30 years ago, it mentions that his statement was one of many rabbanim's words intended to combat shochtim's unions at the time.

as for the statement with regards to the shechita its self, as I am not at all boki in these halachot, and have not personally seen whats going on with the shechita its self, but rather repeading what I have heard from many shochtim (both in israel and america) who are quite disturbed at the situation, I do not accustome myself with this as mammosh traif, because i'm not comfortable insinuating that others should be doing likewise. Other than when I tried to do so, I aslo became anemic (health problems). if it's kosher bidiavad I don't know, but I will tell you that we have serious problems.
So you wont provide sources because "I have never heard of them" and you wont attach your real identity to your comments.

Makes for a very stable argument.
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Unread 02-03-2011, 12:10 PM   #42
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Please refrain from challenging other posters to give their identity. This is an anonymous forum and will remain that way.
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Unread 02-03-2011, 12:34 PM   #43
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*Rules of the forum from the moderator*

1. 1. Although questions are always welcome, when posting answers make sure that the information you are submitting is accurate. If it includes references to something it says in some Sefer or something that the Rebbe said - provide the source. If you provide inaccurate information, or post misleading information, your posts will be deleted. If you notice such posts written by others, please report them to us.


2. However, in order to maintain a proper level of discourse, the following kinds of postings are prohibited:

* Posting blatantly false and misleading information (see Rule #1)
* Using offensive language or posting offensive pictures
* Launching personal attacks against another participant
* Posting Spam or Advertising

Such postings will be deleted immediately. Individuals who engage in such activity will be publicly warned. Individuals who persist in such behavior will have their posting privileges temporarily or permanently revoked.

Making statements without sources that Klal Yisroel at large is eating mamosh treif meat?


Please delete his posts so that uneducated and gullible Jews do not spread this narishkeit. This is mamosh beyond ridiculous.

A person who is never been in a slaughterhouse and speaking to maybe a dozen shochtim at best.

NARSHIKEIT
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Unread 02-03-2011, 12:41 PM   #44
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In defense of ktonton's statement on the word "glatt" being applied where it is not shayach: The Rabbanut Mehadrin Yerushalayim certificartes state that the restaurant is "kasher lemehadrin glatt", EVEN when the restaurant is dairy!

[Moderator's paraphrase: Therefore, the term glatt has lost some of its meaning]

[Moderator's paraphrase: Also, Rubashkin and Empire both are no more or less mass-produced than many other hechsherim known to be reliable.]
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Last edited by Ahrele; 02-03-2011 at 02:23 PM. Reason: MT: If I have paraphrase your post inaccurately, or if you would prefer it be posted as-is, or deleted, feel free to PM me.
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Unread 02-03-2011, 12:45 PM   #45
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Umph, and lamplighter, you should know that anyone who follows S"A to the letter has been in a slaughterhouse, because you're supposed to watch the shochet shecht your kapparot.

And the reason why I eat chicken still is because refusing to do so based on my opinion means that all of klal Yisrael eats treif. So, since I'm not willing to say such a thing, I am somech on the hechsherim to do their job, no matter what qualms my intellect gives me about that. I assume that people like T613 and ktonton use the same logic. However, that doesn't mean that you have to believe that hechsherim don't make mistakes.
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Unread 02-03-2011, 01:22 PM   #46
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The thread is currently closed. Please refrain from opening new threads on the same topic until the moderators determine whether discussion can continue on a moderated basis.
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Unread 02-03-2011, 11:18 PM   #47
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Umph, and lamplighter, you should know that anyone who follows S"A to the letter has been in a slaughterhouse, because you're supposed to watch the shochet shecht your kapparot.

And the reason why I eat chicken still is because refusing to do so based on my opinion means that all of klal Yisrael eats treif. So, since I'm not willing to say such a thing, I am somech on the hechsherim to do their job, no matter what qualms my intellect gives me about that. I assume that people like T613 and ktonton use the same logic. However, that doesn't mean that you have to believe that hechsherim don't make mistakes.
Your post seems to be missing parts or is responding to comments that dont exist.

Why is this thread re-opened?
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Unread 02-08-2011, 09:08 AM   #48
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1) It seems to me that ktonton and LL are rererring to 2 different Satmar Rebbes...
2) Ktonton - why not tell us the names of the books you read? Even if we never heard of them (which seems to me a lame excuse for not quoting something), once we have the names, maybe someone will look for themselves etc.
First, I gave a couple sources about the traifot issue. the issue i'm more concerned about now is the neveilot issue, and as for eidus, all we need are two eidim (and with regards to halacha, 2 and a hundered are identical).

and t613, the issue is that these books are nolonger at hand, however I beleive that this statement is brought also in the concise code of jewish law by ktav press, as well as by shema yisroel by dov rosen (this one may be in error). I cannot give you exact pages.
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Unread 02-08-2011, 04:10 PM   #49
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First, I gave a couple sources about the traifot issue. the issue i'm more concerned about now is the neveilot issue, and as for eidus, all we need are two eidim (and with regards to halacha, 2 and a hundered are identical).

and t613, the issue is that these books are nolonger at hand, however I beleive that this statement is brought also in the concise code of jewish law by ktav press, as well as by shema yisroel by dov rosen (this one may be in error). I cannot give you exact pages.
You gave sources for outdated books. This isnt an issue of halacha this is an issue of current standards. Therefore a book discussing the current standards of Kosher slaughtering in America in the 1950's or even 1980's would not apply because they would be different standards and outcomes. In your case implying they are exactly the same.

The halacha is that kosher witness's must be TWO witness witnessing the EXACT same situation and then testifying in front of a beis din that they were BOTH present in the SAME place and saw the SAME thing.

So you are telling us that you have spoken with 2 shochtim that worked in the same slaughterhouse at the same time and are testifying to you that 9 in 10 animals are treif.

Interesting. I too have 2 (more like 5) shochtim that witness kosher meat slaughtering at the same time/place and say the complete opposite.

So now the issue is neveila? Why has the issue changed? This whole discussion was based on the bedikah of the lungs and the meat ending up with a standard that you dont consider to be Glatte.

Now its about (or maybe it always was) about the shechita itself. Well every day I worked and watched the shochet he checked his knife EVERY time before shechting and would run over to the mashgiach watching the shochet do bedikah to tell him if there was a nevelia.

The shochet has nothing to loose and no hechshur would allow a company owner to influence the shochet or any mashgiach to make things kosher.

If it a hechshur that you trust in the people that they are yiras shamoyim and honest then its not a problem. If you dont trust any meat companies, hekshurs and Jews in general then go eat a salad

because your opinion is not fact it is based on hearsay, gossip, and out of date history of kosher america books.
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Unread 02-09-2011, 08:05 AM   #50
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You are ignoring the much more modern book from artscroll which states the exact same thing, all of them for the past fifty years. this regards to the issue of non-glatte lungs. (which are, according to all of them, kosher. and if you'd bother to look up the sources, you'll see that you're interpretation of the issue, being that we also hold that what the rama allows is glatte, is bogus and downright wrong.

thats the first problem. This doesn't mean that the animals are treif.

however, the neveilut issue is something else, and also difficult.
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