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Unread 05-13-2004, 02:20 PM   #26
daas
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Which is a separate problem.
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Unread 05-13-2004, 02:50 PM   #27
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The two seem pretty interdependent to me...
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Unread 05-13-2004, 03:35 PM   #28
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Simplification of hergesh: If your hergesh gives someone else a "hergesh", drop it!

Meaning, if your hergesh affects someone else, drop it unless it can be backed up with solid sechel.

Veda"l.
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Unread 05-13-2004, 06:01 PM   #29
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Didn't I say that?
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Unread 05-13-2004, 10:26 PM   #30
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Hear this well:

Hergeishim are a "teef" inyan. It takes discerning and shimush or a heilige neshomo to know what's a tummy ache and what's the real thing.

I would not trust the hergesh of someone who cannot distinguish bigger inyanim, like between kosher reverence for a tzaddik and issurei A"Z.

L'moshol, if someone could not distinguish between apples and ice cream, I would not trust their insight to distinguish between diamonds and cubic zirconia.
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Unread 05-14-2004, 01:43 AM   #31
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally posted by Bittul
Simplification of hergesh: If your hergesh gives someone else a "hergesh", drop it!


I like that!
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Unread 05-14-2004, 12:19 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by Maskil
[b]It takes discerning and shimush or a heilige neshomo to know what's a tummy ache and what's the real thing.
does it?

there's a story about a simple Jew whose father was killed in a pogrom who ate and ate and became fat and when asked why he did this, he said that if he was to be killed al kiddush Hashem, he wanted to be a fat korbon for Hashem

sometimes it's the simple ones who have a better "feel" for these things than those who pride themselves on their rational, intellectual faculties

btw - insightfulness is not required to determine whether a rock is a diamond or c.z. and insight certainly isn't necessary when the attack is that obvious
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Unread 05-14-2004, 12:24 PM   #33
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Such simple ones do not exist today.

[We lack] the purity of the simple Yidden of earlier years.
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Unread 05-14-2004, 12:29 PM   #34
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Such simple ones do not exist today.
source?

Quote:
[We lack] the purity of the simple Yidden of earlier years.
can you quote the Rebbe on that?
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Unread 05-14-2004, 02:20 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jude


sometimes it's the simple ones who have a better "feel" for these things than those who pride themselves on their rational, intellectual faculties

I'm sure that too many people relish that thought, and are comforted by it.

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Unread 05-14-2004, 02:29 PM   #36
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If you even have a 'have amina' that you are one, that is the first indication that you are not !
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Unread 05-14-2004, 05:13 PM   #37
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Jude, what was your purpose in starting this discussion, do you really think you are going there and can you make sure it's going on track? Contributing posters can help.
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Unread 05-14-2004, 05:54 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by iamachassid
Jude, what was your purpose in starting this discussion,
see first post

Quote:
do you really think you are going there and can you make sure it's going on track?
some valid points were made
no
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Unread 05-15-2004, 08:46 PM   #39
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imo, the valid points were lost in the junk.
should we ask the mods to put it on track or perhaps to derail this defective train of thought?
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Unread 05-15-2004, 10:24 PM   #40
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Thread was sanitized.
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Unread 05-15-2004, 10:55 PM   #41
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The speedy service is a very pleasant surprise
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Unread 05-16-2004, 02:56 PM   #42
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Hergeshim come from the brain of daas. This is superior to chochmah and binah, in that it is a direct perseption of the essence. This is also something that cannot be learnt. However, a person's "feel" for a thing needs to be interpreted and filtered through the understanding of chochmah and binah. When a person draws clear distinctions and definitions for their understanding, this sharpens their view of what it is that they percieve or sence, and when and where there is room for the opposite.

This daas comes from a person's essential connection to G-d and the Torah. When a person refines the filters this passes through by studying Torah and doing mitzvos, this allows for this to come through in a truer and truer way. At a certain point this gives a person "ruach ha'kodesh" (Divine Inspiration) or even prophesy.

The way a person knows how true their "hergeshim" are (which is really how refined their means of interpreting and understanding this feeling are) is by how often it is "mechuvan la'emes" by realizing something on one's own and then finding it somewhere in Torah. Also, if it is able to unravel the secrets of the Torah, this shows that it is a true and refined filter of these hergeshim.

This is why great Torah scholars and Rabbanim are trusted with "daas Torah" -- the Torah's mindset.

The rule of thumb -- if a hergesh denies its opposite feircly, it is not properly understood and integrated into one's mind. If it makes you see the truth in both sides and understand why in this case one is best, then it is a proper hergesh.

(There is a hemshech of the Freidiker Rebbe about this, but I forget which year of hand.)
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Unread 05-16-2004, 04:11 PM   #43
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I think that what you're describing is different than what we've been discussing up until now in that it's something like the "libi omer li" that a Torah great can say.

This thread so far was talking about the hergesh felt even (or especially) by a simple person.

Here's an example, one related by R' Mendel Futerfas:

"I had a friend who was a simple Jew by the name of Moshe. He made a fortune on the black market but he gave nearly all of it to Tomchei Tmimim. He left for himself only the bare minimum which hardly covered his basic expenses.

"I once asked him how it was that he gave so much to tzedaka. It was over and beyond what he was required to give. Moshe said that once, at a class on Ein Yaakov, he heard the statement of Chazal, 'whoever squanders, shouldn't squander more than a fifth.'

'The money I need for myself is money that is squandered, and since Chazal said not to squander more than a fifth, I don't allow myself to take more than a fifth of my earnings. I give the rest to something which is certainly not considered squandering - upholding Yiddishkeit, especially the yeshivos of Tomchei Tmimim.'

Reb Mendel concluded, "These words, said with such simplicity and truth, accompanied by daily, giving nearly everything away, made a deep impression on me. Years later, when I merited to leave that vale of tears and had a yechidus with the Rebbe, I had to mention the name of that amazing Jew."

***
so is that the halacha? is that what Chazal meant?
noooo ... but ...
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Unread 05-17-2004, 09:01 AM   #44
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Yes. That is the Halacha. And it is the same thing in a Torah sage and simple Jew (it comes from Emunah), only that I described how you know when it is true.
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Unread 05-17-2004, 09:11 PM   #45
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In the sicha from Acharon Shel Pesach 5710, the Rebbe writes about why asking a Rebbe for things is not considered an intermediary. The Rebbe says that this is because a Rebbe is Atzmus U'mehus Melubash Be'guf. Then the Rebbe adds parenthetically:

"I never saw anywhere where it says this explicitly in Toras Chassidus, rather this is a "hergesh", and, automatically, one that desires to feel this way, feels, and one that does not, I do not want to argue with him -- let him have it his way."

I would draw a conclusion from here: that hergeshim are personal and should be kept out of debates.
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Unread 05-17-2004, 09:17 PM   #46
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Aharon haKohen!
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Unread 05-17-2004, 09:42 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by chassidus
In the sicha from Acharon Shel Pesach 5710, the Rebbe writes about why asking a Rebbe for things is not considered an intermediary. The Rebbe says that this is because a Rebbe is Atzmus U'mehus Melubash Be'guf. Then the Rebbe adds parenthetically:

"I never saw anywhere where it says this explicitly in Toras Chassidus, rather this is a "hergesh", and, automatically, one that desires to feel this way, feels, and one that does not, I do not want to argue with him -- let him have it his way."

The parenthetic comment comes before the "melubash be'guf" part, NOT the way you wrote it. It seems to refer to the preceding piece, that a Rebbe and Chossid are one.
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Unread 05-20-2004, 10:13 PM   #48
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Sorry, you are right. This statement is about how G-d, the Rebbe and the Yidden are all one and that therefore a Rebbe is not an intermediary (but a memutze hamechaber).
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Unread 05-20-2004, 10:16 PM   #49
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Sorry that I couldn't be more positive in this case
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Unread 05-21-2004, 07:54 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jude
can you quote the Rebbe on that?
The Frieridike Rebbe said this, specifically regarding parents raising children, but the idea is generic.
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