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Unread 12-03-2007, 01:54 AM   #1
noahidelaws
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Avoidas HaTefillo

Elsewhere the question was asked why certain teachers were davening late. It could just be that those who were davening late, without the minyan, were doing so because they were engaging in what in Chabad parlance is known as tefilla ba'arichus, or tefilla ba'avoida, which means not just davenen with kavono in pirush ha'millos, but lengthy hisbonenus in concepts in Chasidus before and during davenen, in order to arouse tangible feelings of ahava and yira.

As every Lubavitcher knows, on the one hand this avoida is one of the distinguishing qualities of darkei Chasidus Chabad. It's the derech aruko u'ketzoro, as opposed to Chasidus poilin, which is the derech ketzoro va'aruko. The purpose of all the maamorim learned is to use them in avoidas hatefilla, and the Rebbeim said that everyone is shayach to it, as explained in Kuntres Hatefillah, Kuntres Ho'avoida, and many, many sichos and maamorim of Raboseinu Nesi'einu.

On the other hand, it's almost completely neglected, regarded implicitly for all intents and purposes as not shayach r"l, and only a rare few actually engage in it seriously.

Even otherwise very chassidishe people, who are makpid on many other things, just don't do it. Part of the problem seems to be that no one even talks about it, so it seems completely foreign, something for the books. In past generations, this was practiced by many, and a central topic of farbrengens!

But the books haven't changed, and divrei Tzaddikim chayim v'kayomim lo'ad.
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Unread 12-03-2007, 08:25 AM   #2
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Elsewhere the question was asked why certain teachers were davening late. It could just be that those who were davening late, without the minyan, were doing so because they were engaging in what in Chabad parlance is known as tefilla ba'arichus, or tefilla ba'avoida, which means not just davenen with kavono in pirush ha'millos, but lengthy hisbonenus in concepts in Chasidus before and during davenen, in order to arouse tangible feelings of ahava and yira.

As every Lubavitcher knows, on the one hand this avoida is one of the distinguishing qualities of darkei Chasidus Chabad. It's the derech aruko u'ketzoro, as opposed to Chasidus poilin, which is the derech ketzoro va'aruko. The purpose of all the maamorim learned is to use them in avoidas hatefilla, and the Rebbeim said that everyone is shayach to it, as explained in Kuntres Hatefillah, Kuntres Ho'avoida, and many, many sichos and maamorim of Raboseinu Nesi'einu.

On the other hand, it's almost completely neglected, regarded implicitly for all intents and purposes as not shayach r"l, and only a rare few actually engage in it seriously.

Even otherwise very chassidishe people, who are makpid on many other things, just don't do it. Part of the problem seems to be that no one even talks about it, so it seems completely foreign, something for the books. In past generations, this was practiced by many, and a central topic of farbrengens!

But the books haven't changed, and divrei Tzaddikim chayim v'kayomim lo'ad.
I didn't know about this. I have never seen anyone do it. If you could find some words of the Rebbe on this topic it would be much appreciated. For example, his advice for when, where and how to do it today. Thank you very much.
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Unread 12-03-2007, 03:15 PM   #3
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When to do it: before and during davvenen, primarily Shacharis, especially Shabbos.

Where to do it: in a quiet place, so you can concentrate.

How to do it: learn an inyan in Chasidus thoroughly, until you know it back to front. It should be an inyan related to relatively lower levels: seder hishtalshelus, and not the madreigois in the ohr lifnei ha'tzimtzum. Then (after preparations of mikveh and tzedoko,) think over the inyan with all its details, and derive a practical lesson from it (known as a "bechein"). Then you should be reasonably excited and inspired, so use that energy to davven with a chayus, and you'll feel a new excitement you may well have never felt before (especially if you've done this several times)!

For more info., see Kuntres Hatefillah. For more advice, there are special people in Lubavitch whose position it is to advise people on avoidas hatefilla. They are called mashpi'im.
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Unread 12-03-2007, 03:56 PM   #4
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When to do it: before and during davvenen, primarily Shacharis, especially Shabbos.

Where to do it: in a quiet place, so you can concentrate.

How to do it: learn an inyan in Chasidus thoroughly, until you know it back to front. It should be an inyan related to relatively lower levels: seder hishtalshelus, and not the madreigois in the ohr lifnei ha'tzimtzum. Then (after preparations of mikveh and tzedoko,) think over the inyan with all its details, and derive a practical lesson from it (known as a "bechein"). Then you should be reasonably excited and inspired, so use that energy to davven with a chayus, and you'll feel a new excitement you may well have never felt before (especially if you've done this several times)!

For more info., see Kuntres Hatefillah. For more advice, there are special people in Lubavitch whose position it is to advise people on avoidas hatefilla. They are called mashpi'im.
Very very interesting. Thanks for the info and advice.
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Unread 12-23-2007, 11:22 PM   #5
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I was talking about this to my former rabbi, and he told me about a letter from F"R about someone who stopped being a chossid. In there, F"R writes about him that he "davened in minyan even on Shabbos". My rabbi told me that one of his teachers, when he just became a Lubavitcher chossid, thought for a long time that it was a typo (with "not" missing).
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Unread 12-23-2007, 11:59 PM   #6
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IOW, by definition, a Lubavitcher shul should not have a minyan Shabbos, and if it has RL, it is not a real L shul...
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Unread 12-24-2007, 09:59 AM   #7
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IOW, by definition, a Lubavitcher shul should not have a minyan Shabbos, and if it has RL, it is not a real L shul...
You're joking right?
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Unread 12-24-2007, 10:20 AM   #8
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No. He has an odd way of assuming that people are making weird outlandish points, or diverting the discussion of a normal subject to "bavoren" (forewarn) things said by a handful of people totally out of context when they were never the subject of the thread, and thereby spoiling the positive, constructive mood of a discussion. Instead of just noting a matter-of-fact clarification on something that he thinks might not have been clear to everyone. Which is regrettable, as it ruins perfectly good threads.
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Unread 12-24-2007, 10:29 AM   #9
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noahidelaws, what do you think of what FlyingAxe said?
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Unread 12-24-2007, 10:52 AM   #10
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I think I raised a reasonable point that should be explored. However, if you would rather prefer bland boring posts, rather than my style of writing, you are perfectly free to totally ignore them, and you can even feel that the points I raise spoil your threads.
However the question stands: Is calling a certain minyan a "Chassidishe minyan" - an oxymoron? Or does it consist of 10 guys getting together 1 in the afternoon - to make a minyan for kriah (anyone here know Meir Roness...)?
Maybe someone else who is not disgusted and turned off by my posts - would like to address the question...
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Unread 12-24-2007, 11:11 AM   #11
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T613, I had no idea this was even a question. I really thought you were telling FlyingAxe that his story couldn't possibly be true.
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Unread 12-24-2007, 11:35 AM   #12
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He has an odd way of assuming that people are making weird outlandish points
And other people do not consider it odd, and enjoy his remarks very much, and think they are very important.
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Unread 12-24-2007, 11:46 AM   #13
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Torah613, as I've said before, lo beshufteni askinon. The thread was about avodas hatefilo, period. I guess you find positive posts on that topic "bland and boring", which is unfortunate and WADR doesn't reflect well on you. The thread was not about bavorening wierd behaviours, as your 1st post implied, or starting late minyonim, asm mentioned in your 2nd post. If you must discuss those things, why do you have to ruin this thread for it?! Start another one!

As for the "issue" itself that you choose to raise in such a negative, sarcastic, misleading manner, an "issue" that you surely know the answer to already: There were always Chasidim who excelled in avoidas hatefilla, known as ovdim, and those who didn't, and thus davened with a minyan. But every Chasidishe minyan is expected by the Rebbeim to davven slowly, as emphasised in Tanya.

True, that precludes arichus ha'hisbonenus during tefilla, but that's an advanced level and one is not considered not Chasidish for not holding by such a level. Moreover, even those who were shayach to that in previos doros didn't necessarily do it every day.

Moreover, davening with a slow minyan doesn't preclude hisboinenus before, and hisboinenus before tefilla with kavono during tefilla in pirush ha'millos is already a great inyan in avoidas hatefillo.

Again, please keep the tone of the thread positive and stick to the topic; thanks.

As for FlyingAxe's story, I'd have to see it inside, but the way I'd interpret such language is that indeed, it is (or was, or should be) a typical thing for a Chabad chosid to davven ba'arichus on Shabbos at least. But those who aren't up to that level yet, and suffice with hisbonenus lifnei hatfilla and davening with a slow minyan (halevai that would be typical today, r"l) aren't "ois-Chasidish" as a result, because "hakol lefi mah she'hu odom u'lefi hazman vehamokom". Everyone's devotion as a Chosid is judged individually.

Bittul: As we can see, Mr Finklestein completely misunderstood Torah613's pithy post. And Torah613 makes many very valuable and positive contributions to the forum, but I have also noticed on several occasions this unnecessarily sarcastic style, and that's what I take issue with.
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Unread 12-24-2007, 11:47 AM   #14
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And other people do not consider it odd, and enjoy his remarks very much, and think they are very important.
The Agudas Mora Shchoiraniks (Agma"s )
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Unread 12-24-2007, 11:52 AM   #15
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When did being serious become moro shchoira? In fact, a sense of humor is more often displayed by T613 and Gevurah than the rest of us combined.

Noah, please consider that if T613 is posting that way, it means he considers it necessary. You are of course free to consider it unnecessary, but then we would have to debate the necessity of every post on ChabadTalk.
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Unread 12-24-2007, 12:02 PM   #16
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He wasn't just being serious, that's what I was being in my 1st post. He was using a sarcastic tone (and yes, with a mood of moro shechoiro) and also not explaining what he meant for the benefit of mere mortals not gifted with such talent at decipherment, such as myself and Mr Finklestein for example. Rather, he could have said in a positive way: "At first glance that story appears to imply that there is no inyan for a Chabad Chossid to davven with a minyan on Shabbos. Does anyone have any comment or possible qualification of this?"

Whatever, let's just stick to the thread topic.
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Unread 12-24-2007, 07:27 PM   #17
Torah613
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The thread was not about bavorening wierd behaviours, as your 1st post implied, or starting late minyonim, asm mentioned in your 2nd post.
I looked over my 2 posts, and have not found anything about weird behaviours, or late minyonim.

Quote:

Bittul: As we can see, Mr Finklestein completely misunderstood Torah613's pithy post. And Torah613 makes many very valuable and positive contributions to the forum, but I have also noticed on several occasions this unnecessarily sarcastic style, and that's what I take issue with.
Ah, pithy...I had forgotten that word...
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Unread 12-24-2007, 07:29 PM   #18
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When did being serious become moro shchoira? In fact, a sense of humor is more often displayed by T613 and Gevurah than the rest of us combined.

Noah, please consider that if T613 is posting that way, it means he considers it necessary. You are of course free to consider it unnecessary, but then we would have to debate the necessity of every post on ChabadTalk.
נער הייתי וגם זקנתי. I have been accused of many things, but a sense of humour was never one of them. How dare you?! Oh well, live and learn. Sheeeeesh.
OTOH, morah shechora? In THIS thread? Where?

Last edited by Torah613; 12-24-2007 at 09:31 PM.
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Unread 12-24-2007, 08:18 PM   #19
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Ashreinu that T613 is part of the chevrah!
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Unread 12-25-2007, 12:03 AM   #20
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Yes, thanks for your posts, Torah613. Again, back to the thread topic.
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Unread 01-02-2008, 04:08 PM   #21
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The Agudas Mora Shchoiraniks (Agma"s )
Can I join it?
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Unread 01-22-2008, 12:14 PM   #22
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Elsewhere the question was asked why certain teachers were davening late. It could just be that those who were davening late, without the minyan, were doing so because they were engaging in what in Chabad parlance is known as tefilla ba'arichus, or tefilla ba'avoida, which means not just davenen with kavono in pirush ha'millos, but lengthy hisbonenus in concepts in Chasidus before and during davenen, in order to arouse tangible feelings of ahava and yira.

As every Lubavitcher knows, on the one hand this avoida is one of the distinguishing qualities of darkei Chasidus Chabad. It's the derech aruko u'ketzoro, as opposed to Chasidus poilin, which is the derech ketzoro va'aruko. The purpose of all the maamorim learned is to use them in avoidas hatefilla, and the Rebbeim said that everyone is shayach to it, as explained in Kuntres Hatefillah, Kuntres Ho'avoida, and many, many sichos and maamorim of Raboseinu Nesi'einu.

On the other hand, it's almost completely neglected, regarded implicitly for all intents and purposes as not shayach r"l, and only a rare few actually engage in it seriously.

Even otherwise very chassidishe people, who are makpid on many other things, just don't do it. Part of the problem seems to be that no one even talks about it, so it seems completely foreign, something for the books. In past generations, this was practiced by many, and a central topic of farbrengens!

But the books haven't changed, and divrei Tzaddikim chayim v'kayomim lo'ad.
Interesting what the Rebbe says about this in IK3, letter #105
Quote:
[...]
יש מתאוננים על החסידים שמאריכים בלמוד החסידות קודם התפלה, בהתבוננות קודם התפלה, ובנתיים מאחרים זמן ק"ש ותפלה.



וע"ז הוא המענה - לבריאים דבר מזיק הוא, אבל לחולי הנפש, אי אפשר באופן אחר, כי באם לאו יתפלל רק בשפתיו ולא בלבו ותהי' תפלתו בטלה הוא פסולה (ראה רמב"ם הל' תפלה פ"ד הט"ו. שו"ע רבנו הזקן חלק או"ח סימן צ"ח. קונטרס אחרון בתניא ד"ה להבין מ"ש בשער היחודים).



אלא שכמו במשל - צריך בכ"ז זהירות יתרה, שתהי' הכמות לא יותר מן המדה, ע"פ ציווי רופא מומחה וכו', כמובן.
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Unread 01-22-2008, 08:22 PM   #23
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טענו בחטים והודה לו בשעורים.
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Unread 01-23-2008, 09:15 AM   #24
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טענו בחטים והודה לו בשעורים.
What about the other 5 minim? It is, after all, 15 Shvat!

(Or maybe members of Agma"s have a different minhag...?)
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Unread 01-28-2008, 06:53 AM   #25
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Thanks YN. I find that letter very hard to understand. I had thought that the derech of Chassidus Chabad is that the only way to reach true yiras Hashem, and especially ahavas Hashem, which is the purpose of Tefilla, is through lenthy hisbonenus, and so that's what we do in order to have the ideal bond with Elokus. That's not a bedieved situation, because otherwise the person's heart will not be in it, but a lechatchila'dike avoida, so that one can reach higher and higher levels of tefillo miloshon ha'toifel kli cheres--hischabrus--with Elokus. V'ulai yesh lomar that that answer was given davka to that individual for his level, but that's not the true, ultimate inyan of avoidas hatefilla.
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