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Unread 02-13-2011, 01:10 PM   #1
FlyingAxe
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Kiddush questions

  1. I heard from someone that there is a problem of drinking yayin pagum — not making a brocho over it, but drinking bichlal. Therefore, the person said, it is best, when making a kiddush for my wife, to make the kiddush over the kos, then pour out some wine for her, then quickly drink from the kos before she drinks (so that there is no hefsek).
  2. He said that it is not proper to say Kiddush Rabba on the "general drink" (like tea or coffee or juice or other alcoholic drinks) if there is wine available. Therefore, the custom of some people to make kiddush davka on mashkeh (vodka or whiskey) when there is wine in the house is not appropriate acc. to Halacha.
  3. Furthermore, he said, that it is not considered proper today to make kiddush on vodka (even on Simchas Torah, as is a custom in some Chabad Houses), because vodka today is not a general drink that lot of people drink bichlal, like coffee or tea or beer. On the other hand, he said it is ok to make Kiddush Rabba on soda or any general drink.
I have not heard the above before; in fact, I have seen people who are well learned and are makpid on Halacha do the opposite. I was wondering if anyone knows whether there is any basis for what this guy said.
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Unread 02-13-2011, 02:46 PM   #2
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Upon some research... http://www.chabadlibrary.org/books/a.../272/index.htm

Yud and Yud Aleph.

So, now even more I am wondering what's the basis for what this guy was saying. He was quoting the rav of Kfar Chabad about vodka, I think.
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Unread 02-13-2011, 03:27 PM   #3
Torah613
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For 1, see 190:5, 271:29-30. The way suggested above, can have other problems if she is a nida etc.
2 sounds pretty correct.
3 as far as soda is concerned, is open to question. I doubt soda is considered a "mashke choshuv" (see 472:29), though some permit it, but I cannot see it according to the AR.

Last edited by Torah613; 02-13-2011 at 04:07 PM. Reason: added a reference
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Unread 02-13-2011, 03:56 PM   #4
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1. If I pour out of my cup into a third cup, and then she pours from that cup into her own cup and drinks from her cup after I've drunk from the kiddush cup, it's ok, right?

2. Pretty correct = it's not proper to make kiddush on whiskey when there is yayin present in the house? But A"R says "ein lehachmir kol kach"?

3. My wife asked Rav Sheinberg from Yerusholayim, and he said soda is mashka choshuv (as m"ch = something you'd serve at a fancy wedding, acc. to him), but it seems most people disagree. So, what about tea/coffee?
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Unread 02-13-2011, 04:03 PM   #5
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3. Never mind. I just read 472:29. But, for Havdalah any kind of drink (tea, coffee, Dr. Pepper) is ok?
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Unread 02-13-2011, 04:14 PM   #6
Torah613
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingAxe View Post
3. My wife asked Rav Sheinberg from Yerusholayim, and he said soda is mashka choshuv (as m"ch = something you'd serve at a fancy wedding, acc. to him), but it seems most people disagree. So, what about tea/coffee?
I do not understand why it is a mashke choshuv. To me it looks like glorified water (like the example the AR gives in hil Pesach that I referenced. But like I said, some allow soda.

Tea and coffee would probably depend on the locale. Dr. Pepper is just another carbonated dring with another name, no?

For Havdala the regular rules of CM apply, so I do not see why it wold be alowed if you have wine in the house. See Siman 297:8-10.

Consult your local competent Rov.
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Unread 02-13-2011, 04:51 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by FlyingAxe View Post
2. Pretty correct = it's not proper to make kiddush on whiskey when there is yayin present in the house? But A"R says "ein lehachmir kol kach"?
If you mean 272:11, there are 2 more words: כשהיין ביוקר.
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Unread 02-13-2011, 10:09 PM   #8
MahTovChelkeinu
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I do not understand why it is a mashke choshuv. To me it looks like glorified water (like the example the AR gives in hil Pesach that I referenced. But like I said, some allow soda.
Well these days you can go to a fancy restaurant, order a $100 plate of food, and still drink soda. Not sure the same would be true of apple juice...

But it seems to me that ginger drink or liquorice drink would be considered a choshuv type of concoction (I'm think now of flavored waters or seltzer), particularly if you were to add some alchohol. So you have a gin and tonic (fancy drink) or a scotch and soda (fancy drink). But by that logic you also have gin and juice (apple juice)... which is fancy but not as fancy as the others I mentioned.

Seems to me that this is something relative to time and place and that the drinks mentioned by the A"R may have grown in stature somewhat. Soda is likely on the same level as those drinks and so may be a mashkeh choshuv.

But the more important point is that soda is something which "דרך רוב אנשי העיר לקבוע סעודותיהם" which is the stated criteria for making something chamer medina. As I said, you see people at pretty much every fancy meal or special occassion drinking soda if they don't want to drink alchohol. Perhaps you could limit that to clear soda or cola (coke, pepsi) and exclude orange soda or even Dr. Pepper (carbonated prune juice), but the point remains.

Rav Sheinberg, of course, is a tremendous talmud chacham and I am sure he has on what to rely. I am curious if he knew the question was coming from a Lubavitcher.
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Unread 02-13-2011, 10:54 PM   #9
Torah613
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Soda is like water. Similar to that decribed in 472:29, 182:3. IOW, דרך רוב אנשי העיר לקבוע סעודה עליהם is not enough. In my humble opinion, of course.

The fact that RS is a big TC is besides the point. We are learning AR (and - not paskening, of course).
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Unread 02-13-2011, 11:13 PM   #10
MahTovChelkeinu
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The fact that RS is a big TC is besides the point. We are learning AR (and - not paskening, of course).
As I said... I am curious if he knew the question was coming from a Lubavitcher (that holds by AR). Presumably Rav Sheinberg has found the time to peruse the AR on occassion in his tireless chazara of all the misnagdisher sforim.

Quote:
Soda is like water. Similar to that decribed in 472:29, 182:3. IOW, דרך רוב אנשי העיר לקבוע סעודה עליהם is not enough. In my humble opinion, of course.
I see why you say that in that its not simply a question of how often the beverage is drank as it is the context.

But I am thinking to myself "what would make it choshuv like wine or beer?" The only answer I can think of is that people pay extra to get certain classes of wine grown in certain places in certain years. Likewise for beer. They name the varieties and give flowery descriptions and put them in fancy bottles.

Coffee and tea fit that description as well. Soda does not. So your svara makes sense.

Except... these days when the world is absolutely crazy... water also fits the description. People pay extra for water from specific regions in fancy bottles. Companies market "vitamin water" and other flavored waters, much like flavored wines or beers. These days you can actually pay more for a liter of water than you do for a liter of gasoline, let alone soda.

So that criteria falls apart in light of the absurd result. Water, certainly, cannot be chamer medina.

But Rav Sheinberg gave a perfectly reasonable criteria. Soda is served at a wedding just like wine. Where in the Alter Rebbe do you see that criteria as not correct for determining a mashkeh chashuv, and what would you suggest instead?
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Unread 02-13-2011, 11:54 PM   #11
Torah613
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Where it is served is not the issue, rather, how it is served and for what purpose. For example, R' Moshe says soda doesn't work because it is used as a drink to quench thirst (IIRC).
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Unread 02-14-2011, 12:24 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Torah613 View Post
Where it is served is not the issue, rather, how it is served and for what purpose. For example, R' Moshe says soda doesn't work because it is used as a drink to quench thirst (IIRC).
By that logic, nothing non-alchoholic could be a mashkeh chashuv (which is all well and good considering the examples in the AR are beer).

Although it is interesting to mention that soda does not actually quench thirst very effectively. The advantage to soda is that it is a cool drink, so it cools off the drinker as well. Beer has the same advantage. But I don't think this science factoid is so important given that the impression of the drinker is l'choira what's important.

The A"R's terminology is that people are קובע סעודותיהם with the beverage, but not simply "שרוב שתיית הבינונים באותה העיר היא ממשקים הללו"

So the idea then is that the drink is not simply served at the meal, but that the drink establishes the meal. The idea that the drink is served at a choshuv meal seemingly comes from the idea that the drink's choshivus adds to the meal's choshivus. You don't "sit down to a glass of wine" for a Yom Tov meal, but you do drink a glass of wine because its a Yom Tov meal. The wine is part of what makes it a fancy meal. As the A"R says, people drink water at all sorts of meals... that it is drunk is not enough.

Does soda make the meal nicer? There was the concept fifty years ago of "going out for a coke" - which has been supplanted by "going out for coffee." But as I said, you don't see fancy vintage soda served to make a meal nicer the way you do with nice beer or nice wine. And I know families that only serve soda on Shabbos and Yom Tov as a special treat, so there is that choshivus in those families as well.

Then again... you do see fancy bottled water served to make a meal nicer. That does complicate things a bit.
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Unread 02-14-2011, 07:37 PM   #13
FlyingAxe
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I am curious if he knew the question was coming from a Lubavitcher (that holds by AR).
The question at the time was not coming from a Lubavitcher. My wife (now a Lubavitcher) was a student in a MO seminary, and she was disturbed by the fact that her father made Havdallah on soda, so she went to Rav Sheinberg to ask a sheila. He no longer paskened sha'alos, but since he had made a similar psak in the past, he answered: "If it's important." She asked: "How do I know whether it's important?", and he answered: "If it would be served at a wedding."
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Unread 02-14-2011, 07:38 PM   #14
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The question I have is how does one reconcile the common practice of many Chassidim to make kiddush on whiskey, etc., on Shabbos and on vodka on Simchas Torah and not to be makpid about yayin pogum, even though it presumable goes against AR's Shulchan Aruch?
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Unread 02-14-2011, 07:51 PM   #15
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2 sounds pretty correct
Is this based on "ומכל מקום מצוה מן המובחר לקדש לעולם על היין" (end of 272:11)?

Also, I've heard that despite the fact that yayin pogum poured from a kos pogum is a problem, but drinking from the same kos, from which the husband making kiddush drank, is not. But the person giving the opinion did not provide a source. Can someone corraborate or refute this?
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Unread 02-15-2011, 03:07 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by FlyingAxe View Post
Is this based on "ומכל מקום מצוה מן המובחר לקדש לעולם על היין" (end of 272:11)?

Also, I've heard that despite the fact that yayin pogum poured from a kos pogum is a problem, but drinking from the same kos, from which the husband making kiddush drank, is not. But the person giving the opinion did not provide a source. Can someone corraborate or refute this?
a. A wife drinking wine from her husband's kos is an act of chibah (which is why it is forbidden when she is nidah). (This could mean that for someone other than the wife to drink from the kos would be considered a kos pagum.)
b. אין פרי בטנה של אשה מתברך אלא מכוס ברכה של בעלה, which would suggest that there is an inyan that she should drink directly from his kos.
c. But, because of a. it is not a good idea that the wife should drink directly from the husband's kos at kiddush when there are other people present, so that they should not be able to differentiate between times when she does drink directly and times when she doesn't.
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Unread 02-15-2011, 10:55 AM   #17
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A. I do not see the connection.
B. Could also mean from the kos.
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