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Unread 06-19-2003, 05:22 PM   #1
Jude
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An 8th Note?!

It says that the kinor in the time of Moshiach will have eight strings. Once at someone's Shabbos table, a person said that this means that in the Yemos Ha'Moshiach there will be a new, eighth note. An extremely learned Chassidic person present was flabbergasted by this and asked what the source was. Anybody know?

The question arose - will there also be a new color in the spectrum? And how could this be possible - a new color!? a new note!?
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Unread 06-19-2003, 05:33 PM   #2
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It is in the Rebbe's sichos! See LS III:973-976. It is a quote from Erachin 13b, and is also discussed in Likkutei Torah Tazria 21d.

There is also a "ten-string harp" in the same Gemora, which the Rebbe mentions in the sicha of Yud Cheis Kislev 5747, near the end.

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Unread 06-19-2003, 10:06 PM   #3
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"[Acharon shel Pesach, the eighth day of Pesach] shares a connection to the Messianic age as is obvious from our Sages' statement that 'the harp of the Messianic age will have eight strands.'"

Acharon Shel Pesach, 5750
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Unread 06-19-2003, 10:34 PM   #4
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Re: An 8th Note?!

Quote:
Originally posted by Jude
The question arose - will there also be a new color in the spectrum? And how could this be possible - a new color!? a new note!?
I'm not particularly inclined to the sciences, but I did learn enough in Public School to explain the basics.

Colors and music (in gashmiyus) are made up of waves, light waves and sound waves respectively. The frequency of these waves can vary infinitely. (What is frequency? Think of banging a pencil on the table. You can bang it slowly, or quickly, or faster still. There is no limit to the frequency you can tap out a rhythm with your pencil.)

Human beings can perceive a limited part of the spectrum of light and the spectrum of sound (notes). The visible light spectrum goes from red to violet, but after violet the spectrum continues seamlessly. It is only the limitations of our eyes that prevents us from seeing microwaves and radio waves and gamma rays as different colors. Similarly with music, dogs can hear notes not perceptible to our ears.

Leaving high school physics for a moment, the seven colors and seven notes (an octave contains seven notes and then the first again in the next higher octave) corellate to the seven days of olam hazeh. Eight, of course, is the bris, shmini atzeres, the eighth year to qualify a stream as mayim chayim, etc.--the level above nature.

So seven is associated with the world before Moshiach, eight is associated with attaining the higher level that will come with Moshiach.

Now, an eighth color is not hard to understand, but the eighth note is different. Because we can hear multiple octaves, and the notes are a harmonious division of the octave, the question is not one of hearing sounds that are too high or low for us, but rather harmoniously "squeezing in" an additional note into our octave. What comes to my mind is something similar to the luchos and the aron, where "above space (bli gvul)" existed within "space (mugbal)".
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Unread 06-19-2003, 10:40 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by lambda


There is also a "ten-string harp" in the same Gemora, which the Rebbe mentions in the sicha of Yud Cheis Kislev 5747, near the end.
This harp is also mentioned in תהילים in the possuk בנבל עשור יזמרו לו.
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Unread 06-19-2003, 10:51 PM   #6
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According to Rebbi Yehudah, the Kinor was the seven-stringed harp which they used in the Beis-Hamikdash; the Sheminis was, as its name suggests, the eight-stringed harp, which will be used in the time of Moshiach; and the Neivel the ten-stringed harp (known as the Neivel-Asor) which will be played in the World to Come.

Rebbi Yehudah describes the Neivel as a ten-stringed harp (as we explained above), whereas, according to our Mishnah, the harp and the Neivel are two different instruments - in fact, the Neivel is a wind-instrument, whereas the harp is of course, a string-instrument.

Rebbi Yehudah agrees that the Neivel is a wind-instrument; But, the harp of Olom Ha'ba, because it has so many strings, resembles the Neivel inasmuch as the Neivel too, has a unique many-faceted tone.

source: http://www.shemayisrael.co.il/dafyom...a/er-ra-13.htm
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Unread 06-19-2003, 10:58 PM   #7
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Shabbos Parshas Shemini [which means "eight"]... which is particularly pertinent to Moshiach Tzidkeinu; the "harp of the days of Moshiach" consists of "eight strings"... And this is followed directly by the concept of nine and ten, the holiest level, the perfection of which will be in the true and complete Redemption - a "harp of ten strings," that is higher than a harp of eight strings.

Shabbos Parshas Shemini, 5751
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Unread 06-20-2003, 08:36 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by lambda
It is in the Rebbe's sichos! See LS III:973-976. It is a quote from Erachin 13b, and is also discussed in Likkutei Torah Tazria 21d.

There is also a "ten-string harp" in the same Gemora, which the Rebbe mentions in the sicha of Yud Cheis Kislev 5747, near the end.
Lambda, I am surprised how you missed the point. It is well known about the 8 string and 10 string Harp. The question is, does it say anywhere that there will be a new NOTE?
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Unread 06-20-2003, 12:00 PM   #9
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Thanks yn for your explanation on the sciences. interesting and helpful.
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Unread 06-20-2003, 12:11 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by rebayzl


Lambda, I am surprised how you missed the point. It is well known about the 8 string and 10 string Harp. The question is, does it say anywhere that there will be a new NOTE?
nu nu nu nu nu (to make up for Gevurah's absence)

You caught me. I have heard it before, once from Rabbi Akiva Tatz. His sources are usually mussardike, like Michtav MiEliyahu or maybe some Litvishe Kabbalah like the Leshem.
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Unread 03-29-2004, 12:26 AM   #11
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The Rebbe Rashab states in the maamor for Parshas Tzav TRS"Z that the 7-stringed kinor is connected to the 7 midos as revealed in Malchus, whereas the 8-stringed kinor of the future is the revelation of binah in worlds.
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Unread 03-29-2004, 01:54 PM   #12
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which means?
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Unread 03-30-2004, 09:41 AM   #13
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Binah is presently concealed in mochin. L'asid it will be revealed. See Likutei Torah Tzav, p. 16, beginning with the line והניף ידו על הנהר
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Unread 08-09-2004, 09:59 PM   #14
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Quote:
Chazal say that the kinor or the Beis Hamikdash had 7 strands, the kinor of the days of Moshiach will have eight strands, and [the kinor] of techiyas hameisim will have ten strands. The difference between the Beis Hamikdash and the days of Moshiach is only one strand; and [the kinor] of techiyas hameisim will have ten strands, that the inyan of ten strands hints at the ten sefiros, which is the level of yud (of the name Havaya, which connotes tmidus).

Toras Shmuel, TRL"B, chelek B, 352-3
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Unread 08-09-2004, 11:45 PM   #15
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what it means that there will be an eighth note when moshiach will come, means a eighth note and not a string. For it says about this eighth note and all the other eights in refference to moshiach that the number eight is lemaale mehateva and if it would be just one more string whats the chidush

so what it means is that in nature there are only seven notes meaning A B C D E F G and in nature there cant be another note anything else is either a major of a note or a minor but when moshiach will come there willbe higher then nature one more note added
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Unread 08-10-2004, 10:43 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by chasidus
what it means that there will be an eighth note when moshiach will come, means a eighth note and not a string.
Do you have a mekor? I have looked, but I only ever saw reference to nimin -- strands.
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Unread 08-10-2004, 04:46 PM   #17
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like I said before if its not an eighth note what is the chidush it means an eihthg string with another note which that cannot be done now and is a chidush of lasid lavo higher then hishtalshelus
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Unread 08-10-2004, 05:13 PM   #18
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Are "chasidus" and "chassidus" one and the same?
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Unread 08-10-2004, 05:28 PM   #19
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no
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Unread 08-10-2004, 05:30 PM   #20
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in toichen yes though VeDa"L
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Unread 02-14-2005, 11:52 AM   #21
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How about colors?

Can we understand this Zohar in Noach 72b (in light of the statement in Toras Shmuel and the Rebbe Rashab regarding the 8th/10th strand) to mean additional colors?
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Unread 02-20-2005, 01:37 PM   #22
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In the (old) Mafteach of the Alter Rebbe's seforim it lists the following under keshes:

Maamorim 5567 p.62 (three colors of the keshes of Moshiach)

Maamorim 5568 p.465 (number of colors); p.497 (three colors); p.567 (as above).

I don't have access to these seforim; perhaps there is someone here who can take a look and see if these answer the question about the colors at the time of Moshiach.
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Unread 02-25-2005, 01:21 AM   #23
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Toras Chaim Breishis, 37d:

"...the colors that we see in the pillar which stands in Gan Eden HaTachton...we see three colors in this pillar...(like the rainbow, in which we see these three colors revealed, the three levels of gold, silver, and copper...)"

No mention of Moshiach, though. Like to know what is says in the AR's samech zayin...
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