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Unread 10-28-2002, 05:35 PM   #351
Shlucha
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even only listening to his niggunim?
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Unread 10-28-2002, 05:37 PM   #352
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why would his music be banned? the chabad stuff too?
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Unread 10-28-2002, 11:00 PM   #353
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i think it's the exception rather than the rule, even in Detroit. let's keep the gossip out. no need for it.
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Unread 10-28-2002, 11:16 PM   #354
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i don't know what the stand on his chabad stuff is as i became familiar with the law well before he began putting out the chabad tapes.

i would not be overly surprised if his chabad tapes were also not allowed. you can not compare the way his nigunim are sung, arranged etc to the old style nichoach and charitonov and co.

i know that many will argue that avremel's is better will attract more people to listen to nigunim which could all be well and true, but it lacks the same (what some may call daggy, drab etc) chasidish feel. (this relates to arguments earlier in the thread, modernising music to attract listeners etc etc etc)

personally i listen to all of his music, i am merely pointing out that i can understand someone who wouldn't.

wandering i don't think this is about gossip at all

Last edited by shoyn; 10-30-2002 at 12:51 AM.
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Unread 10-30-2002, 04:55 PM   #355
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Jude, I don't think he made Karahod goyish; I've heard it sung worse...

And re yeshivos who don't allow his niggunim tapes; are they trying to force your average kid davka to go against the rules or to think that Chassidishkeit is too much?! It's ridiculous! It's like enforcing iskafya! Kids have to be related to according to their own level and understanding, and based on many conversations I've had with kids, this does NOT help them in their sfeykois to become more chassidish. Ayn zach saying only niggunim; but allow ALL niggunim tapes so at least the nefesh habehamis feels SOMEWHAT placated.
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Unread 10-30-2002, 05:01 PM   #356
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Quote:
I've heard it sung worse...
not that that proves anything ...
the test for goyishkeit is the reaction of a pure child who knows the difference between Chasidishe niggunim and a goyish sound. When he raises his eyebrows and makes faces you just know ...
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Unread 10-31-2002, 04:08 AM   #357
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Jude, what about 200 years ago when some niggunim that today are not "goyish" (even though they were written, played and worded by Jews) but then were, would a child then also "raise his eyebrow" to that "goyish" music, and if so what is the difference today, it is the same notes made by the same people "yesteryear"?
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Unread 10-31-2002, 10:43 AM   #358
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can you be specific, like which songs? composed by whom?
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Unread 10-31-2002, 07:35 PM   #359
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Lubamessimaniac- I have to disagree with you on the "enforced Iskafya" comparison...

Music affects people in a very subtle way- you can't see the effects until it's too late. If a Yeshiva makes sure that the atmosphere is one of only Aidel Niggunim, the Bochurim will be affected positively, and without it, the atmosphere, and therefore the Bochur's attitude/outlook/Ruchniyus status would be different. And NOT for the better .

I personally DO listen to all types of music, but one day I'd like to be on the level to ONLY listen to Aidel, Chassidish music.
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Unread 10-31-2002, 09:56 PM   #360
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well- if you make A. Fried's niggunim "second class"-(which some pple even need to work on themselves to listen to-) then what about all other music?
poshut treif?

how is a kid supposed to feel if he actually has to force himself to listen to music like "avinu malkenu", and for the next "heilike bochur", that's not even good enough?

it is pathetic. shouldn't pple appreciate A. F. for making Chabad niggunim so accessible and enjoyable, rather than considering it "second class'?

is "avinu malkenu" not eidel and chassidish enough?

get real
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Unread 10-31-2002, 11:41 PM   #361
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i think that A F has done a great job with making nigunnim accessible and enjoyable by a wider and diverse crowd tht perhaps would have never been exposed to such music. However does that make it kodoysh? does that mean it is the optimum in chasidishe nigunnim?

artscroll have done a great job with english gemorro etc is that the volume the average yeshiva boy should be learning from?

oyb gut is gut is besser nisht besser?
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Unread 11-01-2002, 10:02 AM   #362
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I'm not Ch"V saying anything against AF and our other singers, composers, and musicians. The idea is like, if I have a choice to eat the Kashrus at my house or at the Rebbe's house- there is obviously a higher Madreiga (level) involved- despite both being Glatt 100% Kosher! AF is Kosher, but you can't say that his music is the same level as a song composed by a Rebbe!
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Unread 11-01-2002, 01:51 PM   #363
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Both sides make valid points.
I think that if you want to instill higher standards, you have to make it very clear that lower standards (where halachically permissible etc.) are not EVIL.
I'll use a line often quoted, that R' Twerski quotes from his father - that when his father expected more of him, he said, "es past nisht", and the boy got the message. It wasn't that what he was doing was criminal or an aveira. It just didn't poss ...
Each person will apply this in his/her own way. Naturally, we're supposed to be sensitive towards those who maintain both higher as well as lower standards than our own.

Another example I heard: if children are made to think that short sleeves and reading the Jewish Press are an equal issur, when they grow up and discover that respectable, frum people also peruse the J.P. they are likely to reject the issur of short sleeves, tossing both out together. Why? because they were equated when they shouldn't have been.

And a final point, which I've made elsewhere, it is an avla to impose our shortcomings on our kids. We should be spiritually ambitious for them, even if we ourselves are not as great as we ought to be. This is not the place to explain how to go about this though.
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Unread 11-04-2002, 01:13 PM   #364
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Jude, I agree with you. Downunda, you have a point that maybe this should be discussed at farbrengens, or the like; but by making it a complete "no-no" you are shoving kids off the "chassidish" table and into the "I'm-not-Chassidish-because-I-do-this" trashcan. That's not the way to go about doing things! Let kids be kids, and teach them to go beyond their taavois; but don't asser the cholov yisroel/212/Badatz hechsher chocalate bar because you want the kid to commit himself to iskafya!
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Unread 11-04-2002, 07:11 PM   #365
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lub,firstly as i posted earlier i don't personally observe this etc, i am merely exploring the rationale of those who do. i am sure every parent who sends his kids to yeshiva inquires about the rules etc, if he feels the rules are too stringent, then it his obligation to send them elsewhere, if someone thinks that their kids aren't up to learning 14 hour days, wel then he must find an alternative institution (as opposed to arguing with institution that they should cut out a few hours of learning to cater and not impose......)
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Unread 11-05-2002, 01:43 PM   #366
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jude
Another example I heard: if children are made to think that short sleeves and reading the Jewish Press are an equal issur, when they grow up and discover that respectable, frum people also peruse the J.P. they are likely to reject the issur of short sleeves, tossing both out together. Why? because they were equated when they shouldn't have been.
i couldn't agree more. i know of a shliach who wont let his mekurovim (even those who are far from being considered Lubavitchers) eat not lubavitch shechita. i know it sounds crazy but its true. Anyway the guy considered this as a halacha, just like cholov yisroel. one day the guy met a snag who told him that this Lubavitch shechita is a shtus, so he thought that cholov yisroel is also, because the shliach equated them, and ditched them both
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Unread 11-09-2002, 10:25 PM   #367
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Is Avraham Fried's new one only niggunim?
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Last edited by Shlucha; 11-09-2002 at 11:01 PM.
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Unread 11-14-2002, 10:46 PM   #368
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i just saw a video of yerachmiel bigun's miami boys in yerusholayim. there are 2 or 3 lubavitcher kids in the group. i find it very strange that our parents would have their children be part of that. Am i the only one wondering about this, or do some of you agree that its strange?
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Unread 11-14-2002, 10:52 PM   #369
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considering the questionable range of activities that many kids are involved in today, this might be quite positive.
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Unread 11-14-2002, 11:35 PM   #370
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maybe so. but es past nisht.
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Unread 11-15-2002, 04:18 AM   #371
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I would assume parents do it because there are no remotely similar opportunities for our talented boys. Maybe we should fill that void?
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Unread 11-15-2002, 12:07 PM   #372
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I'm curious. Leayis - what do you find unsuitable about it? Lubavitchers mingling with non-Lubavitchers? that it's the Miami Boys as opposed to some other group? that it's not niggunim?
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Unread 11-16-2002, 08:07 PM   #373
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I disagree because it's Miami - the kids are such blatant show-offs and girl-worshippers. I had the "zchus" of speaking to two of them a few years ago, and I was shocked at how little Yiddishkeit Begun asks from the kids...
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Unread 11-17-2002, 03:11 AM   #374
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I think it's like sending a child to a non-Lubavitch camp. Nothing against other Derachim, but our Derech is our Derech!

[Derech: pl. Derachim : way, path]
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Unread 11-17-2002, 03:55 AM   #375
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BS"D I thank Hashem for Miami Boys Choir - without it I am SURE certain people I know would be very tempted to listen to goyisher music!
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