Jewish Forum & Discussions - Chabad Talk  

Go Back   Jewish Forum & Discussions - Chabad Talk > Torah and Judaism > Halachah & Minhagim

Closed Thread
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 3 votes, 4.67 average. Display Modes
Unread 09-01-2002, 08:38 AM   #301
Lubamessimaniac
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 505
I wish one of the holy Mods would take a look at this thread so maybe we can get answers which are semi-qualified. As long as it's not someone knowledgable in the whole field, the answers given are just guesses (I think). Does someone out there know Avi Piamenta? Ask him for us what the gist of the Rebbe's opinion was.
__________________
Is "Expire" the opposite of "Inspire"? Does that mean that if you're not inspired, you're dead?
Lubamessimaniac is offline  
Unread 09-01-2002, 02:26 PM   #302
hishtatchus
Senior Diamond Member
 
hishtatchus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,606
--Just a suggestion for another tape- Mendy Jerufi/Gerufi is a Chabadnik who does very Aidel music- with a beat. He also writes most of his songs himself, which avoids the problem of composers "borrowing" Goyishe tunes.--
hishtatchus is offline  
Unread 09-02-2002, 12:09 AM   #303
Lubamessimaniac
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 505
True. I don't know why his stuff isn't very popular - it's a lot better then some of the squeakers - Dachs, Flamm, Yeedle, Williger - yuk. Their stuff is never original.
__________________
Is "Expire" the opposite of "Inspire"? Does that mean that if you're not inspired, you're dead?
Lubamessimaniac is offline  
Unread 09-06-2002, 01:22 PM   #304
Shlucha
Silver Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 712
could someoen please expalin to me how you could have a Jewish song with goyishe words???? If it had goyishe words, seems to me it would be a goyishe song! (because I don't think we ever actually figured out what exactly makes a song jewish, ie, tune, words, composer,).
Shlucha is offline  
Unread 09-09-2002, 01:14 AM   #305
Golem
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 25
That could be a point, just like you say a Jewish song with Goyish words would be Goyish, why can't it be the other way around?
Golem is offline  
Unread 09-14-2002, 10:39 PM   #306
Shlucha
Silver Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 712
I'm still not getting this. How could you have a jewish song with goyishe words?????? and if thats allowed, then, yes, Golem, you are really right!
__________________
In achdus we shall live...
Shlucha is offline  
Unread 09-14-2002, 10:42 PM   #307
noahidelaws
Executive Platinum Member
 
noahidelaws's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,479
BS"D <<could someoen please expalin to me how you could have a Jewish song with goyishe words???? >>

Well, Jewish words express feelings that are refined, and are aimed at improving the person and drawing him closer to Hashem. Words which do the opposite are Goyish.
noahidelaws is offline  
Unread 09-15-2002, 02:05 PM   #308
Shlucha
Silver Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 712
ok...getting there...
so basically, if you have a "jewish" song that is talking about, lets say making as much money as you can and not caring about anyone else (that's a pretty un-Jewish theme, I'd say), then according to the opinion of some of you lovely posters, that would be BETTER than taking a goyishe tune and putting words with a Jewish theme (lets say, about bringing Moshiach, pretty Jewish, no?). Am I understanding what you are saying, or have I gotten it all wrong???
Shlucha is offline  
Unread 09-16-2002, 09:39 PM   #309
Lubamessimaniac
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 505
Dunno - I'm on post-Yom Kippur trauma, sorry got no brains now to answer that kinda stuff. Just an update on the non-Jewish Jewish songs:

Dedi 4 - Eishes Chayil
Yehuda - Yosis Olayich (was an Israeli Ashkenazic pop song.)
__________________
Is "Expire" the opposite of "Inspire"? Does that mean that if you're not inspired, you're dead?
Lubamessimaniac is offline  
Unread 09-16-2002, 10:56 PM   #310
WanderingJew
Executive Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 451
uh..one sec...
re. yosis alayich..israeli Ashekenazic song-just to point it..that might make it a non-frum tune, but it doesn't make it non Jewish.

btw..what exactly is your point in digging up all this stuff? It's a bottomless pit, and it serves no purpose, IMHO anyway.
__________________
think UP:)
WanderingJew is offline  
Unread 09-17-2002, 01:39 AM   #311
Golem
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 25
I heard something very interesting a Rabbi told me,
He was relating Jewish music to something else that i can't remember, (i think it was some kind of books) I think the Freideker Rebbe said that these books bring the distant close and the close distant.
So it could be same with goyish music that has been changed with Jewish words or vica-versa it really helps alot with people who are becoming frum howver it makes people who are brought up chassdish move slightly more away.

P.S. I would like to thank Lubamessimaniac for writing all the Goyish tunes because it gives people room to start refining their taste in music because the ideal is that we are listening to niggunim, alot of people are not at that level but if we keep that ideal in mind then it helps people move to a higher level and stop listening to those songs are probally an early step.

Last edited by Golem; 09-17-2002 at 01:42 AM.
Golem is offline  
Unread 09-17-2002, 07:50 AM   #312
Lubamessimaniac
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 505
Golem, right on x2! Well said!

And WanderingJew, a love song isn't Jewish, even if it's in Hebrew. David Lazzar's "Sara" isn't Jewish either, even though the tune is his own. It doesn't have ANY Jewish toichen, and in fact, the toichen is quite the opposite! (But don't start on Shir Hashirim...)
__________________
Is "Expire" the opposite of "Inspire"? Does that mean that if you're not inspired, you're dead?
Lubamessimaniac is offline  
Unread 09-17-2002, 12:59 PM   #313
Shlucha
Silver Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 712
Ok.....I"n NOT giving up here. I'm addressing the question now to Golem, who originally posted it, and hishtachtus, who answered.

HOW IN THE WOLRD CAN YOU HAVE A JEWISH SONG WITH GOYISHE WORDS?????? IF, LETS SAY, IT HAS WORDS THAT ARE CONTRARY TO THE TORAH, IT'S NOT JEWISH TO BEGIN WITH!!!!!!! so what makes it jewish, in your opinion then??? The composer??? Please, pulleez answer me on this one, as you see, I'm really going CRAZY!
Shlucha is offline  
Unread 09-17-2002, 06:03 PM   #314
WanderingJew
Executive Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 451
Lubamessimaniac..you haven't answered my question.
why not apply your talents at extolling the virtues of niggunim-if that was indeed your point-rather than bash every "Jewish" (ok, let's not get into that issue) song out there? i just don't get your point, although it seems you have a following here .
care to elaborate?
__________________
think UP:)
WanderingJew is offline  
Unread 09-17-2002, 07:16 PM   #315
Lubamessimaniac
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 505
To extoll niggunim? That would take forever! But I'll pull out my old notebooks and see what I can dig up for you one of these days. The point of piling up the non-Jewish songs is for those purists who want only Jewish music, and for anyone else to know the junk they're being fed without being told. If you're going to feed people it, I think the performers should at least let us know what it is!
__________________
Is "Expire" the opposite of "Inspire"? Does that mean that if you're not inspired, you're dead?
Lubamessimaniac is offline  
Unread 09-17-2002, 07:34 PM   #316
WanderingJew
Executive Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 451
Right, so the "purists" should be aware of what they're listening to..and skip the songs when they come up on the CD next time.

maybe someone should start the very first Niggunim History Channel -thread-
in all seriousness, it is fascinating to hear/read about how our niggunim were composed.
__________________
think UP:)
WanderingJew is offline  
Unread 09-17-2002, 07:40 PM   #317
hishtatchus
Senior Diamond Member
 
hishtatchus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,606
Shlucha, sorry for not answering before (computer withdrawl).

You ask how there can be such a thing as a Jewish tune with non-Jewish words: I know I was rather vague (you were all moichel me a couple days ago, right?).

I was referring to Goyish words in the sense of "Pareve". I.e. words written by a Goy, but not necessarily contradicting Torah. I agree with you totally- if they have anti-Torah values they are TOTALLY Goyish! (Again, Goyish words are definitely a lowering of values, so they are not recommended by anyone, but the question was which is worse, theoretically- Goyish tune or words).

Nu, zog a Niggun!
hishtatchus is offline  
Unread 09-18-2002, 12:28 AM   #318
Shlucha
Silver Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 712
THANK YOU, thank you hishtachtus for answering me!!!!!

So let me understand what you are saying...that a song made up by a goy, about, lets say, rain falling on the grass, is better than a tune made up by a goy and then a jew putting Jewish words to it. Correct? Ok, I put away my , but I'm not completely sane yet, not till I figure this out completely!!

So is that the scoop? Disagree 100%. You the innocent song "Happy Birthday to You?" NOTHING un-Jew about that, right? Except it was made up by sunday school teachers in a black kloister. And you are telling me I can sing Happy Birthday till it comes out of my ears, but I should not listen to Mordechai Ben David.
Shlucha is offline  
Unread 09-18-2002, 06:00 AM   #319
Golem
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 25
well i think it is obvious happy birthday is on a lower level than MBD because maybe both words are not against Torah, and both might be originally composed by a Goy BUT ONE HAS WORDS WRITTEN BY A JEW WITH A JEWISH THEME AND THE OTHER DOESN'T. So pretty much there have to be levels of Music, ideal being niggunim only and worst being anti Torah worded goyish songs.
Golem is offline  
Unread 09-18-2002, 12:10 PM   #320
hishtatchus
Senior Diamond Member
 
hishtatchus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,606
Shlucha, I reiterate that I think that the TUNE is more of an issue than the words, although of course one should ideally listen to a Jewish tune with Jewish words. Happy Birthday is a Goyishe tune. If, let's say, some Goy took an Avraham Fried song and put "Pareve" words to it, I think it would still be a higher level than if Avraham Fried took a Goyishe tune and put a Pasuk to it.
hishtatchus is offline  
Unread 09-18-2002, 01:40 PM   #321
Shlucha
Silver Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 712
and then if that happened, it would be better for me to listen to the Goy's pareve song than Avraham Fried's?
__________________
In achdus we shall live...
Shlucha is offline  
Unread 09-19-2002, 04:38 PM   #322
chocolatechips
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 12
I've read this forum (so please DO NOT tell me to go read it again, it took me like a month) and I think (forgive me for saying this) that the reason given for not listening to non-jewish music is...pretty lame, I guess. I mean connecting with the soul...? So who says that the soul of the "Chevrah" is one I want to be connected to? I mean, they are not Lubavitchers (NOT that that makes them bad or ANYTHING!!) and they might have some bad feelings against Lubavitchers...and I want to connect? Do you get what I am saying? So if possible, if someone could please sit down and explain this to me. Thanks a lot. I know it might take a long time. And if you'll just say "re-read the forum," please move on to the next thread.

~chocolate chips~
__________________
Chocolate Chip Cookies are G-d's gift to the world!!!
chocolatechips is offline  
Unread 09-19-2002, 04:59 PM   #323
noahidelaws
Executive Platinum Member
 
noahidelaws's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,479
BS"D Please restate the question, didn't get it at all, thanks.
noahidelaws is offline  
Unread 09-19-2002, 06:13 PM   #324
chocolatechips
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 12
OK...
1. I do not understand/ agree with the reason stated for not listening to goyish music (connecting with soul of composer...etc etc). It seems like a pretty weak reason. Like, why do you connect to the soul? What if the composer did not put his soul into making it? What if it just popped into his head and he wrote it down (or however you can remember tunes )?

2. Now, saying that yes, you do connect, because of this very good reason (I'm waiting...), who says the soul of the Jewish song is one you want to connect to? Example: the Chevrah. Let's say, that they ch'v have bad feelings toward Lubavitchers. And I want that??? Or not even that extreme, not that bad. Avraham Fried? Not to say anything bad about him, ch'v, I"m just giving an example.

3. Please, if you are going to take the time to answer me, please answer me with things I can understand. Like not, look in Likutei Sichos from tof reish chof bais, or reread the thread, or figure it out yourself.

Thanks a bunch! (hope that clarified for YOU so you can clarify for ME!!!)

~chocolate chips~
__________________
Chocolate Chip Cookies are G-d's gift to the world!!!
chocolatechips is offline  
Unread 09-19-2002, 10:14 PM   #325
noahidelaws
Executive Platinum Member
 
noahidelaws's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,479
BSĒD <<What if the composer did not put his soul into making it? What if it just popped into his head>>

But it doesnít, really. Music doesnít exist in a vacuum, it is very deep an expression of an inner emotion. Think about it. When you are in a certain mood, you sing a song you know which expresses that. Whether sad or happy, longing etc. And you get deeply caught up in it, roused, because itís so emotionally powerful. So the same applies when people invent music Ė they release their deep feelings through it, so the listener is affected by those feelings.

<<who says the soul of the Jewish song is one you want to connect to?>>

Excellent question. Well, I only listen to chassidishe niggunim for that very reason.

But still, even the neshomo of regular guys like us like M Ben David or A Fried are on a much much higher level than those of goyim, which are VERY low, as Chassidus says. And they are good, frum people. So if you arenít so excited by the really pure stuff, Frum Jewish singersí songs are also Kosher.

Hope this was of help to you!
noahidelaws is offline  
Closed Thread

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Lithuania: The Struggle Continues RebLazer The World of Lubavitch 17 05-04-2005 06:30 PM
Good reviews! mjw Current 1 08-25-2004 12:36 AM
Jewish Music Radio Station Jude Bulletin Board 7 03-08-2004 02:16 PM
Help encourage more Jewish babies! Yankel Nosson Bulletin Board 23 07-14-2003 04:43 PM
Jewish music for secular kids CheBraccia Shlichus 30 04-01-2002 11:10 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:18 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2001 - 2016 ChabadTalk.com